[sdiy] PCB / Panel Manufacture

Sat Feb 8 01:31:02 CET 2020

First off, thanks to everyone for all of your suggestions, comments, and
detailed responses. I read everything you all wrote and I have a lot to
think about. I am constantly amazed by the amount of sharing / willingness
to help others expressed by the diy synth community. I don't know what else
to say at the moment, but rest assured I will be unpacking your messages
and looking over all of the various places you mentioned. I'll let you know
when I actually have a pcb here at my desk 😁

On Fri, Feb 7, 2020 at 12:36 PM Daniel Roberts <danmroberts at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I think that copy just hasn't been updated since they started offering
> black boards. Elsewhere on the site:
>
> "OSH Park manufactures entirely in the US and isn't affected by Lunar New
> Year."
>
> On Fri, Feb 7, 2020 at 9:06 AM mark verbos <mark at verboselectronics.com>
> wrote:
>
>> "Our purple boards are manufactured in the USA and shipped free to
>> anywhere in the world.”
>>
>> seems to suggest that the black/clear ones are not. In case that matters
>> to you…..
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 7, 2020, at 12:47 PM, john slee <indigoid at oldcorollas.org> wrote:
>>
>> Not anymore! They now have a black substrate/transparent soldermask
>> option. I used it to make a PCB panel recently, with a copper flood-fill on
>> the top layer, and (I think) it looks absolutely lovely
>>
>> Hopefully this image attachment thing will actually work...
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 7 Feb 2020 at 21:55, Sarah Thompson <plodger at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> OSHPark manufacture in the US and are cheap and fast. I used them a lot
>>> when I worked at NASA for prototypes. They can work with EAGLE easily. I've
>>> also used them for front panels by designing the panel as a PCB -- this
>>> works pretty well. One peculiarity is that all their boards are purple,
>>> which you may or may not like! :-)
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 7, 2020 at 7:56 AM <rsdio at audiobanshee.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Shawn,
>>>>
>>>> Eagle will work fine. Basically all of the fab houses accept Eagle
>>>> files, and certainly all of them support Gerber files produced by Eagle.
>>>> Eagle has all of the features you need to make professional boards. It will
>>>> take you a long time to learn everything, but everything can be done in
>>>> Eagle. There are some commands and key combinations that are esoteric, but
>>>> nearly all CAD software is like that, except for some of the newer programs
>>>> (but those are less than fully professional). Your best bet is to find the
>>>> online support forum for Eagle, read the documentation, and ask questions
>>>> if you can’t find answers to your questions in the archives of the forum. I
>>>> purchased Eagle before it became subscription based, so my license has no
>>>> limitations. I don’t know whether your license is size-limited,
>>>> layer-limited, page-limited, or otherwise limited. So, unless you run into
>>>> limits, I recommend treating Eagle like a new synth that you dive into and
>>>> learn absolutely everything you can about it.
>>>>
>>>> Keep in mind the size constraints of Eurorack. You don’t want breakaway
>>>> tabs on your PCB interfering with modules next to yours. Same thing with
>>>> face plates, although Dieter covers this on the doepfer.de site.
>>>>
>>>> I order all of my PCB designs from USA-based fabrication houses.
>>>> Prototron is near me in Redmond, WA. They’re probably the most expensive
>>>> I’ve ever used, but they’ll make a deal for quantity. Sunstone Circuits in
>>>> Oregon has some bargains, but it really depends upon your size. Advanced
>>>> Circuits, a.k.a. 4PCB, have some decent deals on prototypes, and their
>>>> quality is way above the cheaper places. I can literally see the quality
>>>> different with the naked eye when comparing an Advanced Circuits PCB with
>>>> my exact same design files made by a cheaper fab house. OSH Park probably
>>>> has the best prices in the USA, but you’ll wait longer than anywhere else.
>>>> Their quality is really good - probably all you’ll ever need - but they’re
>>>> not top quality.
>>>>
>>>> Once nice thing about 4PCB is their FreeDFM site that will check your
>>>> Gerber files and report errors. There’s no charge to use the site, but
>>>> you’ll get one email asking if you want to buy the boards. I’ve never
>>>> received more than one advertising email, though, so I often use them to
>>>> check a design even when I order somewhere else. This is a good way -
>>>> especially when you’re just starting out - to get an idea of whether your
>>>> PCB is following standard design rule
>>>>
>>>> Speaking of fab houses and Eagle, make sure you find and download a DRU
>>>> (Design Rules) file for each of the sites that you want quotes from. OSH
>>>> Park and Sunstone Circuit actually have the files on their web sites.
>>>> Advanced Circuits describes all the constraints textually, and if you study
>>>> how to edit the data in Eagle then you can create your own DRU for Advanced
>>>> Circuits orders. Before ordering any new PCB design, make sure you change
>>>> the DRU selection to point to the file describing the specific fab house
>>>> that you want to order from, and run the “dru" command to check for
>>>> violations. You might have to change trace sizes or move things around to
>>>> fit the capabilities. Sometimes, the minimum drill size makes your vias
>>>> larger, and then everything has to be spaced further apart. FreeDFM will
>>>> catch this, but you can catch almost all of the same issues inside Eagle
>>>> before you upload anything. Eagle remembers which DRU file you’ve selected
>>>> for each PCB project board file, so you can order from different places.
>>>>
>>>> Some people think PCB fab options are as simple as: China is cheap, and
>>>> USA is expensive. Some people even think that all PCBs are made in China
>>>> even when you order from a USA company. Sometimes this is true, but not
>>>> always, and there are other factors. For one thing, TSA can randomly hold
>>>> up your PCB order at the border, and then you’ll be waiting longer than OSH
>>>> Park (OSH Park is my benchmark for “long wait times"). I had one customer
>>>> order from the cheapest Chinese PCB shop, and then screamed bloody murder
>>>> when TSA held all of the boards for weeks, maybe months - delaying their
>>>> product manufacturing. You might pay more in USA most of the time, but it
>>>> might also really be worth it to you when you consider everything like
>>>> time-to-market.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I’ve made several panels, both for 19” rack electronics and for
>>>> Eurorack. I’ve ordered everything from Front Panel Express in Seattle.
>>>> They’re somewhat expensive, but if you pay attention you can keep the price
>>>> reasonable. For one thing, it seems really expensive to add paint in etched
>>>> lettering, and so I’ve never paid for that. However, if you just spend a
>>>> few cents extra for anodized aluminum, especially black, then etched
>>>> lettering will reveal the bare aluminum color behind the anodized surface,
>>>> and then you don’t need to pay for paint to make the letters visible via
>>>> contrast. Front Panel Express will also screen print any image, but I’ve
>>>> only used that for projects where I have the extra budget - it’s not cheap,
>>>> either.
>>>>
>>>> Front Panel Express has a free application that you use to design the
>>>> panels. It’s probably a really bad idea, because I don’t know whether you
>>>> can import or export designs from other design tools. Since I’m only doing
>>>> prototypes, I don’t worry too much that all of my designs are in a
>>>> proprietary format. However, it is really convenient that you can get price
>>>> quotes within the app, and they’re even itemized so you can see what
>>>> determines the cost and sometimes even delete or change features that are
>>>> too expensive. Sometimes it’s a slow process to quote all of the variations
>>>> appropriate for a given design, but if you’re cost conscious then it’s
>>>> probably worth the time to research.
>>>>
>>>> One cool thing about Front Panel Express is that if you screw up a
>>>> panel in a way that you can fix it by cutting more away, then you can save
>>>> money by sending back the original panel for them to cut changes. That ends
>>>> up being cheaper that ordering a second panel from scratch, but you really
>>>> have to work extra hard to create a design that includes just the
>>>> differences between the old mistakes and the new desired panel. I realize
>>>> this is probably only a practical option when you live close enough to
>>>> drive by, drop off the old panel, and pick up the new one later. They have
>>>> free shipping for large orders, but when you’re saving money you have to
>>>> think about the cost of shipping when your total is below their free
>>>> shipping minimum. Obviously, though, you can’t fix a panel after you’ve cut
>>>> too much away - there’s not a drill that can add aluminum back on the face
>>>> plate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For both PCB and panel designs, you want to make careful measurements
>>>> of all mechanical parts, particularly screw holes, screw placements, and
>>>> drill sizes. Not only do you have to align the components with the boards
>>>> and panels, but you have to align the boards and panels with each other.
>>>>
>>>> In Eagle, I tend to create extra layers, or use Documentation or
>>>> Reference layers to draw the mechanical parts that are not actually part of
>>>> the PCB. This helps me get an idea of how things will fit together later.
>>>> Of course, there are work flows that allow you to create 3D data for your
>>>> PCB design. Eagle is compatible with that, and I know people doing it, but
>>>> I haven’t taken the time to learn. Besides, you still need to create 3D
>>>> models for the face plate and other mechanical components, and that seems
>>>> like a lot of work unless you’re using the exact same parts as everyone
>>>> else.
>>>>
>>>> You have to get used to the fact that some parts are measured in
>>>> metrics units, and others are measured in English units. Within Eagle, I
>>>> frequently switch my measurements between Inches, Mils, and millimeters.
>>>> It’s a pain, because I don’t know how to change the units after calling up
>>>> the editor for a component placement, so I just cancel the dialog, switch
>>>> units, and then open the dialog again. Once I get all parts that touch
>>>> other parts aligned properly, I use the Eagle “lock” tool to prevent those
>>>> parts from being moved accidentally. Components that only mount on the PCB
>>>> and nothing else are left movable.
>>>>
>>>> Meanwhile, FrontDesign.app also allows English and metric units, and
>>>> again is a bit of a pain because I find that you always need to mix both in
>>>> the same design. Eurorack is a bizarre mix of English units and metric.
>>>> Even though the numbers are almost always reported in millimeters, it’s
>>>> fairly obvious that 1 HP is 0.2” (1/5”), so I often check placements on a
>>>> 0.2” grid.
>>>>
>>>> There are lots of things to learn, but these days we have the internet.
>>>> I recently had to figure out what size hole to drill to guarantee the
>>>> standard amount of room for an M3 screw and an M6 pot shaft. Sometimes the
>>>> data sheets for the electronics components will tell you these things.
>>>> Other times, you just have to ask the industry what’s a standard drill size
>>>> for an M3 screw.
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I prefer solid aluminum to a PCB for front panels. Granted,
>>>> you can order a multilayer PCB and dedicate a solid copper layer to shield
>>>> your electronics from emissions, but it seems a lot easier to keep out
>>>> noise with a solid metal enclosure. For Eurorack, that means a metal case
>>>> and metal face plates. But there’s nothing wrong with using Eagle to design
>>>> cool face plates.
>>>>
>>>> You can even change the colors of the layers in Eagle to get a rough
>>>> idea of how the finished product will look. I designed a product where the
>>>> internal boards have black screen print on clear solder mask, and the raw
>>>> copper and FR4 material shows though. OSH Park has an option now with black
>>>> PCB material, white screen, and clear solder mask that looks crazy - you
>>>> really have to think about how it will look before you order.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> One weird thing about Eagle is that Devices seem to require all Symbols
>>>> and Packages to come from the same library file. So, you can make your own,
>>>> but if you want to borrow an existing Package for your Device, you’ll have
>>>> to copy that Package into your library. I recommend building your own Eagle
>>>> parts library, and back it up regularly. I actually use revision control,
>>>> just like I do for source code when doing computer software design, to keep
>>>> track of my own Eagle library files. That way, I can recover an old
>>>> version, and can work on multiple computers and know that I have the latest.
>>>>
>>>> There are Eagle libraries available for free, and they’re sometimes a
>>>> time-saving starting point, but never trust that they’re correct. Whether
>>>> you create the packages yourself, download them from the Eagle community,
>>>> or mix and match, you always want to study the data sheets for the
>>>> electronics parts, direct from the manufacturer, and make sure all
>>>> measurements are correct. Here is where you learn that you can’t make the
>>>> drill size the same as the through-hole lead size, because it will be too
>>>> tight once the copper plating, board finishing and tinning are completed
>>>> and the hole gets smaller.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding data sheets, I recommend that you *always* go directly to the
>>>> part manufacturer’s web site, search for the exact part you’re using, and
>>>> download the latest data sheets for the stuff you’re using. Trusting Mouser
>>>> to have the latest information, or some internet aggregator that wants to
>>>> sell you knockoff chips, is not the way to get your design right. It takes
>>>> almost exactly the same amount of time to download the data sheet from the
>>>> wrong source as it does to download it from the right source. Once you do,
>>>> keep a backup of those files for future reference, and keep the files
>>>> organized so you know what you have. On that note, I currently have
>>>> approximately 2,838 data sheets from 218 different manufacturers under
>>>> ~/Documents, and I have a few backups of those.
>>>>
>>>> Most of them have recommendations somewhere for PCB design for their
>>>> parts, but a lot do not have any hints. That’s partly because the proper
>>>> way to design is highly dependent upon the process used by your particular
>>>> PCB fab, and when you change fab houses you might need to actually change
>>>> your PCB design to accommodate.
>>>>
>>>> Some companies like Analog Devices and Texas Instruments also have
>>>> Application Notes and even electronics design articles from excellent
>>>> engineers who will explain many of the things you need to know to design a
>>>> PCB. You have to start by reading the entire data sheet for the parts
>>>> you’re using, and follow every link in that data sheet to the other
>>>> documentation from the manufacturer on related information that you might
>>>> need.
>>>>
>>>> As for whether you need 2 oz copper, or super wide traces, there are
>>>> probably plenty of articles online that will discuss that.
>>>>
>>>> Brian Willoughby
>>>> Sound Consulting
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 6, 2020, at 7:31 PM, Shawn Rakestraw <shawnrakestraw at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > Hey All! I'm new to the list and this is my first question.
>>>> >
>>>> > I want to dip into making some PCBs and possibly front panels. I am
>>>> into eurorack, so that is what I will be aiming toward. I have been
>>>> learning how to use Eagle to make my schematic into a board.
>>>> >
>>>> > Currently, I have been working on a power supply PCB that would mount
>>>> inside of a case, so I don't have any major size constraints or precision.
>>>> I will probably make a simple bus board next to distribute the power. Then
>>>> I want to move on to an actual module. Something simple at first.
>>>> >
>>>> > I should also mention that I am in USA, although that probably
>>>> doesn't matter that much anymore. I do prefer to order things in the US
>>>> when I can though.
>>>> >
>>>> > I am asking for any advice at all really. My question begins with who
>>>> / where to order from, but after that I am a bit in the dark about what to
>>>> even ask. I don't know if copper trace thickness should be a concern.
>>>> Obviously with power PCBs and distribution boards you want wide traces and
>>>> I have done some research to try to learn how wide for certain amp loads.
>>>> Really, any advice will be good for me - anything that you wish you had
>>>> known before your first order could be helpful.
>>>> >
>>>> > Has anyone made panels and if so, what is the beginning process for
>>>> that? Can you design them in Eagle using Nets or something? I don't know
>>>> how people even design them.
>>>> >
>>>> > Thanks in advance, I look forward to your replies!
>>>> >
>>>> > - Shawn
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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-- 
[image: Our Website] <http://epicpoolsga.com/>
Shawn Rakestraw
678-232-7192
shawn at epicpoolsga.com
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