[sdiy] Help, I'm Desperate! (Charge Injection with DG408)

mark verbos markverbos at gmail.com
Thu Dec 13 12:07:17 CET 2018


That’s what I did on the Multi-Envelope, but that’s only crossfading between DC voltages not audio. I use 2 DG409’s (1 of 4 multiplexers) and PWM the enable pins to do the crossfade. The benefit is that you get 2 channels automatically. You do need to lopass filter the output. I think you could do audio if you clocked it REALLY high. I’m only clocking at 50k or something. 


Mark



> On Dec 12, 2018, at 3:51 PM, rburnett at richieburnett.co.uk wrote:
> 
> I haven't done the calculations, but I'm left wondering whether or not you can do this "multi-input crossfade scanner" thing well enough using just fast PWM of the analogue switches themselves, and ditch the VCA's altogether.
> 
> -Richie,
> 
> 
> 
> On 2018-12-12 13:42, Martin Klang wrote:
>> I understand you don't do microcontrollers David, but some of us are less fussy!
>> This is something I'm planning to prototype:
>> 8 input channels going into two analogue switches, into two VCAs, with
>> switches and VCAs controlled by an MCU. The MCU decides to switch an
>> input only when the corresponding VCA is at -inf (ie when the other
>> VCA is fully on).
>> Using an MCU means it's easy to do a bunch of things that would be
>> very hard with analogue comparators:
>> - configurable cross-fade slopes using lookup tables
>> - cross-fade to start function (let the last input be crossfaded back
>> to the first one so that a ramp input will produce a continuous,
>> circular scan)
>> - adjustable range of active inputs
>> - LEDs to show which inputs are active and audible
>> - different modes: tracking, triggered, cycling
>> I was going to use two VCAs of a V2164 for the cross fading between
>> the two multiplexed inputs. Driven by two 12bit DACs, controlled by CV
>> read by a 12bit ADC. I think I'll be able to run both ADC and DAC at a
>> pretty high rate, to achieve something like 16x oversampling at audio
>> rate, which should give performance / dynamic range nearer to 16 bits.
>> The second two VCAs on the 2164 I was going to use to add a regular
>> VCA with adjustable linearisation. With the input normalled to +10V
>> and CV to the output from the scanner, this would let you control the
>> 'exponentiality' of the output. Alternatively you could use the
>> scanner in triggered mode as an 8-stage envelope and VCA.
>> Martin
>> On 12/12/2018 11:41, Tom Wiltshire wrote:
>>> Nine VCAs and DAC channels seems like too much hardware.
>>> There’s nothing wrong with the switches, but I’d do it with two switches to select the inputs to two VCAs controlled by two DACs, and then a uP to control the switches and DACs. You can easily make sure that the VCA is shut off when the multiplexer switches, so there shouldn’t be any clicks even if the switch generates one.
>>> ==================
>>>        Electric Druid
>>> Synth & Stompbox DIY
>>> ==================
>>>> On 12 Dec 2018, at 10:02, john slee <indigoid at oldcorollas.org> wrote:
>>>> I suspect a more-digital solution would be easier to get right, for people more inclined toward such things, just more expensive
>>>> 9 VCAs, 9 DACs to control the VCAs, and a microcontroller to control the DACs.
>>>> No need for switching at all, if I understand your intent correctly?
>>>> I readily acknowledge that digital isn't for everyone, though.
>>>> John
>>>> On Wed, 12 Dec 2018 at 13:57, David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca> wrote:
>>>> Roman,
>>>>  You're right.  Your suggestion is superior.  I was simply unaware of what a complete shit-show all this digital circuitry is.  This is exactly the reason why I avoid digital solutions whenever possible.  This module should be a pretty straightforward application of an analog multiplexer, but you are basically saying (and I concur based on my experience) that I can't use such a thing for clean audio, and to me, that is a sad indictment of these ICs.  I'm now switching these DG408s about as cleanly as is humanly possible, and they're still misbehaving.  It just shouldn't be this hard.
>>>>  So, I'm going to try to implement your idea, but I don't have the ICs I need.  I'm also still trying to understand exactly how the switching works.  I'm presuming that the 3914 must be in Dot mode, because only one comparator can be on at a time for this to work, and therefore, this circuit ONLY works with 3914,  and cannot be implemented with a generic flash comparator chain.
>>>>  So, I'm going to finish off the circuit as it is, because it works pretty well, but I concede that I basically cannot use these fucked up digital chips to switch active audio circuits, and will build the next one your way.
>>>>  Cheers,
>>>> Dave
>>>>  From: Synth-diy [mailto:synth-diy-bounces at synth-diy.org] On Behalf Of Roman
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2018 1:20 PM
>>>> To: synth-diy at synth-diy.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [sdiy] Help, I'm Desperate! (Charge Injection with DG408)
>>>> I know it's too late, as the circuit at this stage has already gone slightly different path, and I already gave up, but couldn't help drawing this little schemo that explains my idea of using single switches with that obsoleted chip. Switches should be DG444 or similar (0=closed, 1=open), or replace diodes with NAND gates and use any regular dirt cheap switch like 4066.
>>>> There's no switching happening while VCA is open, provided that VCA control triangles match the edges of LM3914 stages. The only switched channels are the ones routed to muted VCA, so in theory there should be no clicking audible.
>>>> Basicaly this is just the circuit that makes this input switching sequence:
>>>> VCA-A:12233445566..
>>>> VCA-B:11223344556...
>>>> by creating one step overlap between stages. Only 6 inputs in this example, but can be extended to any other number.
>>>> http://www.synthdiy.eu/files/scanner.png
>>>> IMHO switching active channel will always produce some clicking for many reasons: not matched channels, difference between transistion times H->L and L->H as Ingo said, break-before-make feature of DG407, slow response of 4532, and who knows if not also charge injection.
>>>> Roman
>>>> Dnia 11 grudnia 2018 18:24 Ingo Debus <igg.debus at gmail.com> napisał(a):
>>>> Am 11.12.2018 um 08:10 schrieb David G Dixon <dixon at mail.ubc.ca>:
>>>> There is now
>>>> only one tiny problem: There is still an almost imperceptible click when the
>>>> CV crosses 0V (and the logic control voltage crosses 2.5V) in the positive
>>>> direction.  This is when the logic switches from 011 to 100 (i.e., all three
>>>> bits change).  Interestingly, I don't hear the click at all when the CV goes
>>>> in the other direction (100 to 011).
>>>> Couldn’t this still be caused by a very brief „forbidden state“ during the transition from 011 to 100? In your case, the forbidden state would be 000 (MSBit changes slower that the other two) or 111 (MSBit changes faster). Probably just a difference between rising and falling slope. Can you check with a scope?
>>>> Ingo
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