[sdiy] Pots vs Encoders, was Re: [sdiy] dave smith *instruments*

[Benjamin Budts]

feel the same about what you say here, for my kind of music (not too 
slow I guess :-D ) :

This is the kind of experience you get with encoders. And, sure, if
you turn veeeryyy sloooowwlllyyyy you can get them to do almost what
you want them to. But I play more than one note per second on my
keyboard and *I expect the same kind of controllability from the
resonant filter with which I want to change the leading overtone more
often than once per second.*


>5. Spinning the knob as quickly as possible ~360 degres results in
>unpredictable response, either no change, max change, or anything in
>between.

This pissed me off seriously while testing DSI stuff...

>7. With a little practice you can get a 'click feel' and could probably get
>quite skilled at turning a knob and getting exactly so many 'clicks'.

I don't want to learn the click feel on a specific type of synth... Can 
you image learning the click feeling on an arsenal of synths you have :p 
. If people ask you what instrument you play you would have to answer : 
I'm a clicker :-D . Ok for non instruments, for FX racks etc... but 
totally not OK for an instrument.

cheers,
Ben

cheater cheater wrote:
> Scott Jason and Eric,
> not to hijack your FPGA thread, but I thought I'd chime in with some
> on-topic. :P
>
>   
>> There's an implication in this thread that encoders cant be used as
>> performance controls and that's silly.
>>     
>
> They can, for some definitions of 'performance'. You can put two cds
> in two cd players, with recorded tracks at the exact same beat rate,
> press play on one of them, slowly move the crossfader, and call that
> an amazing performance. But I can't.
>
>   
>> They can but with their inherent
>> limitations.  Positional feedback isn't always necessary - I want a slower
>> attack, I want more resonance, I want.... - that's just turn a dedicated or
>> assignable encoder left or right.
>>     
>
> This is only until you start thinking of it a bit harder and trying to
> up the ante, as they say. You know, a violinist doesn't think whether
> the next note he wants to play is 'higher' or 'lower'. If this were so
> the performances would be full of pretty bad glissando and terribly
> articulated notes. This is the same with any performance control on
> any instrument, be it a string, a mouthpiece, the tongue, the open end
> of a trombone, or a key. When you want to play a specific pitch on a
> piano, do you think the following? 'oh, hmm, the key that my finger is
> depressing is higher than the pitch I want to play next. Let's try
> this key a few steps to the left. Is that the right key? Oh, no it
> isn't. Let's try a bit higher. Ugh, still not the right one. Let's try
> the black one a bit lower. Oh crap, I was pressing keys too fast and
> now my hand has randomly moved to the highest pitch on the keyboard! I
> hate being epileptic!'
>
> This is the kind of experience you get with encoders. And, sure, if
> you turn veeeryyy sloooowwlllyyyy you can get them to do almost what
> you want them to. But I play more than one note per second on my
> keyboard and I expect the same kind of controllability from the
> resonant filter with which I want to change the leading overtone more
> often than once per second.
>
> I'm not trying to knock down on you or call you a newbie. I'm pretty
> sure you're great at what you're doing. But the fact that having to
> turn your performance controls real slow and really carefully doesn't
> mean it's not a problem, it just means it's not a problem for you,
> because you never needed anything more. Maybe your kind of music does
> not require this, I'm sure mine and a lot of other people's does.
>
> I do not want to feel like I'm being epileptic and therefore encoders
> are definitely bad for me.
>
>   
>> 3. Testing the 'Osc Fine Freq' setting that has a range of -50 to +50, if
>> you spin the knob 360 degrees in about 2 seconds or less the display will
>> smoothly increment and show a change of 24 ticks
>>     
>
> This is not good enough for me. Often I need to adjust a knob 6-10
> times per second. To give a simple example, it needs to go from a to b
> back to a and so on. An encoder can in no way provide this. This is
> not the kind of thing that an encoder was ever meant for. If someone
> never wanted to do this sort of thing, he either plays reeeaaalll
> sloooowww music (good for him, I like slow music too) or isn't a synth
> player, but much rather a piano player who wants some new sounds (and
> plays a polysynth by just using the keyboard and maybe the mod/pitch).
>
>   
>> 4. If you spin the knob in about 1 second the display will change from -50
>> to +50, skipping most or all intermediate values
>>     
>
> What if I want to make an adjustment from -50 to +25 in 0.3 seconds?
> Funny that I can quantify this, but this sort of thing happens quite
> often when I'm playing.
>
>   
>> 5. Spinning the knob as quickly as possible ~360 degres results in
>> unpredictable response, either no change, max change, or anything in
>> between.
>>     
>
> And you say that's not a problem? If this happens during performance,
> everyone leaves, unless they're your friends, but friends forgive
> anything.
>
>   
>> 7. With a little practice you can get a 'click feel' and could probably get
>> quite skilled at turning a knob and getting exactly so many 'clicks'.
>>     
>
> No, this is terrible. You are hurting yourself and your skill by
> learning this sort of thing.
>
> D.
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 17:32, Dave Manley <dlmanley at sonic.net> wrote:
>   
>> Tom Wiltshire wrote:
>>     
>>> I accept that a panel full of encoders and a single LCD screen isn't much
>>> competition for pots, since the pot positions sometimes show you something
>>> useful, and only the encoder whose value is on the LCD tells you anything.
>>> But this isn't really comparing like with like, although that is the
>>> situation on the P08 or Evolver, which is where we came in.
>>>       
>> There's an implication in this thread that encoders cant be used as
>> performance controls and that's silly.  They can but with their inherent
>> limitations.  Positional feedback isn't always necessary - I want a slower
>> attack, I want more resonance, I want.... - that's just turn a dedicated or
>> assignable encoder left or right.  The Mopho/Tetra for example has dedicated
>> encoders for common performance parameters, the other encoders are patch
>> assignable to what ever you want.  So pick your preset, listen to the sound,
>> and tweak away.  The Mopho/Tetra interface also makes it really easy to
>> reassign an encoder in real time, but you do have to scroll through the
>> parameter list, so it does take attention.
>>
>> I was just testing a Mopho looking at the overall quality and the rotary
>> encoder issues you describe.  A few comments:
>>
>> 1. The rotary encoders are 24-step.  I believe this is the part:
>> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=P10860-ND
>> 2. They have a very solid feel, The data sheet says they're rated for 30K
>> operations for what's that worth.
>> 3. Testing the 'Osc Fine Freq' setting that has a range of -50 to +50, if
>> you spin the knob 360 degrees in about 2 seconds or less the display will
>> smoothly increment and show a change of 24 ticks
>> 4. If you spin the knob in about 1 second the display will change from -50
>> to +50, skipping most or all intermediate values
>> 5. Spinning the knob as quickly as possible ~360 degres results in
>> unpredictable response, either no change, max change, or anything in
>> between.
>> 6. If I put the knob at min value, and then turn counter-clockwise as fast
>> as possible occasionally the display will take a value between -50 and -45,
>> indicating some misreads.
>> 7. With a little practice you can get a 'click feel' and could probably get
>> quite skilled at turning a knob and getting exactly so many 'clicks'.
>>
>> I don't see any glitchy behavior.  Not denying that others see it, or I
>> won't see it in a year on this Mopho, just reporting what it currently does.
>>
>> -Dave
>>
>>
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>>     
>
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