[sdiy] Random Tone Generator redux

Kyle Stephens lightburnx at yahoo.com
Thu Mar 26 04:51:03 CET 2009 

Mm, starve controls are awesome. And I'll take your word on being able to branch outputs on the CMOS chips.

In any event, I'm looking forward to Ian's build later in the week, though seeing as I have break this week, I might beat him to it ;)


_Kyle

--- On Wed, 3/25/09, Dan Snazelle <subjectivity at hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: Dan Snazelle <subjectivity at hotmail.com>
> Subject: RE: [sdiy] Random Tone Generator redux
> To: lightburnx at yahoo.com, "sdiy" <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
> Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 8:25 PM
> 
> keep in mind i am a guy who loves starving cmos chips and
> feeding their +V inputs a CV to create sequences ;)
> 
>  i add buffers onto outs if i feel they are critical
> (precision situations) and leave em off if i am just working
> up some weird beast that it doesnt matter
> 
> i suppose i dont mind stuff like loading on non-essential,
> crazy messed up circuits.
> in a case like a vco  i would worry more about
> buffering. but in my own personal use, 
> i send one cmos out to a few places all the time.  and
> when i played the MIT version of this circuit on the
> breadboard, i was able to mess with things in all kinds of
> ways that were to my liking using the same output routed to
> multiple places. maybe i come from more of a circuit bending
> or lunetta mentality when it comes to these small cmos
> circuits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but i think as long as the user is AWARE that they are
> risking loading, etc, they can always add buffers if it is a
> critical situation
> 
> if not...well then just see what happens....as long as the
> pads arent hard to add.
> 
>  
> in the end it was just my silly opinion anyway.  which
> tonight is plenty silly
>  :)
> 
>  thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> check out various dan music at:
> 
> http://www.myspace.com/lossnyc
> 
> (updated monthly)
> 
> http://www.soundclick.com/lossnyc.htm
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.indie911.com/dan-snazelle
> 
> (or for techno) http://www.myspace.com/snazelle
> 
> ALSO check out Dan synth/Fx projects:
> 
> AUDIO ARK:
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJRpvaOcUic
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqIa_lXQNTA&feature=channel_page
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4nJPjGgOcU&feature=channel_page
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------
> > Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 18:23:41 -0700
> > From: lightburnx at yahoo.com
> > Subject: RE: [sdiy] Random Tone Generator redux
> > To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >
> >
> > *shrug* If there's room and it doesn't incur much more
> if any cost for pads, fill 'er up imo.
> >
> > If we're talking about unused divider outs on the
> 4024s, yeah, they're meant for that. But taking a tap from
> one part of the circuit leading already elsewhere, and
> you've got a voltage divider (hence the buffer). Think we
> had some meanings mixed up, heh.
> >
> >
> > _Kyle
> > --- On Wed, 3/25/09, Dan Snazelle  wrote:
> >
> >> From: Dan Snazelle 
> >> Subject: RE: [sdiy] Random Tone Generator redux
> >> To: lightburnx at yahoo.com,
> synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >> Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 5:37 PM
> >>
> >> id love a klude area but only if it makes sense
> >> as far as hooking stuff up to the outputs...if
> they are on
> >> the chip what is the real danger of using them?
> maybe with a
> >> 9v that would be an issue but is the current draw
> that big
> >> of an issue with a 15volt modular psu?
> >>
> >>
> >> and it would just be nice to HAVE the
> pads...people could
> >> always hook up buffers.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> i have never had any chips get warm and i almost
> always use
> >> tons of outs on my 4024s but then again i am
> usually looking
> >> for pretty weird sounds so i like being able to
> have the
> >> options
> >>
> >>
> >> thanks
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --------------------------------------------
> >> check out various dan music at:
> >>
> >> http://www.myspace.com/lossnyc
> >>
> >> (updated monthly)
> >>
> >> http://www.soundclick.com/lossnyc.htm
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.indie911.com/dan-snazelle
> >>
> >> (or for techno) http://www.myspace.com/snazelle
> >>
> >> ALSO check out Dan synth/Fx projects:
> >>
> >> AUDIO ARK:
> >>
> >> www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJRpvaOcUic
> >>
> >>
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqIa_lXQNTA&feature=channel_page
> >>
> >>
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4nJPjGgOcU&feature=channel_page
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------
> >>> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:45:34 -0700
> >>> From: lightburnx at yahoo.com
> >>> Subject: RE: [sdiy] Random Tone Generator
> redux
> >>> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Rock n roll Ian, yay for cheap n quick :)
> >>>
> >>> As for kludging, I'd say if there's room left
> on the
> >> board that's not filled otherwise, a few spare
> pads
> >> shouldn't cost much more, if anything depending on
> who does
> >> the PCB. To keep things open ended, if you to
> expand, I
> >> reckon just buy more PCBs or have a little
> stripboard on the
> >> side.
> >>>
> >>> In brief, keep initial costs down, though have
> caveats
> >> for expansion (and expenses incurred therein) at
> the behest
> >> of the builder.
> >>>
> >>> Maybe just have an extra pad adjacent to to
> places
> >> where you find interesting sounds out of, though
> as I've
> >> said you'll start load the circuit down if you
> have multiple
> >> outputs being used at once; that usually equates
> to a drop
> >> in volume, and the excess current drawn might cook
> things
> >> unpleasantly. LED driver-style transistor buffers
> ought do
> >> it... maybe have the kludge space be oriented for
> making
> >> those
> >>>
> >>> Ken Stone did something like that here:
> >>> http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgsld.html
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _Kyle
> >>>
> >>> --- On Wed, 3/25/09, Ian Smith  wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> From: Ian Smith
> >>>> Subject: RE: [sdiy] Random Tone Generator
> redux
> >>>> To: "synth diy"
> >>>> Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 1:16 PM
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> You got that in one Kyle. I like doing
> things that
> >> don't
> >>>> cost too much and you can get a lot out
> of. I
> >> thought for a
> >>>> few minutes to put something crazy like a
> 566 in
> >> there, but
> >>>> it doesn't fit my way of doing things and
> there's
> >> easier and
> >>>> cheaper ways of getting multiple
> waveforms.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'll try and post a revised schematic
> tomorrow
> >> with the
> >>>> updates.
> >>>>
> >>>> -Ian
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Naw, not too crazy. That was the
> multi-tap out
> >> idea I
> >>>> had. There would just need to be some
> poking
> >> around to see
> >>>> which points would be the most viable. I
> can't the
> >> Boolean
> >>>> algebra yet, but I bet within the circuit
> there
> >> will be two
> >>>> point having either the same/close eniugh
> not to
> >> matter
> >>>> signal, or something equally benign like a
> simple
> >>>> inversion.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm all for PCBs too! I like that the
> parts
> >> herein are
> >>>> pretty cheap, all ICs less than a dollar
> each
> >> (hell, 50
> >>>> cents even), at surplus prices.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _Kyle
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --- On Wed, 3/25/09, Dan Snazelle
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> From: Dan Snazelle
> >>>>>> Subject: RE: [sdiy] Random Tone
> Generator
> >> redux
> >>>>>> To: taciturn_unquiet at hotmail.com,
> >>>> lightburnx at yahoo.com,
> >>>> "sdiy"
> >>>>>> Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009,
> 12:18 PM
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> in case my last post didnt make
> sense.,.i
> >> would
> >>>> buy a bunch
> >>>>>> of these if i thought that
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 1. they had a pad for external
> clock (and
> >> i could
> >>>> worry
> >>>>>> about whether or not your device
> could
> >> handle my
> >>>> clock)
> >>>>>> 2. it had pads at IC2 out say q1,
> q, etc
> >>>>>> 3, it had some pads out at say ic4
> q3,
> >> q4,etc
> >>>>>> 4. it had a pad out at ic6a, or
> i1d
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> bascially then i could use these
> pcbs for
> >> all
> >>>> kinds of
> >>>>>> weird duties.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> i use 4024s with 4051's a lot.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> and i think the single most
> powerful
> >> aspect of a
> >>>> board like
> >>>>>> this is how MANY points you can
> take
> >> stuff, useful
> >>>> weird
> >>>>>> stuff, out of it
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> does this make any sense?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> maybe this would be too crazy
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> thanks
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >> --------------------------------------------
> >>>>>> check out various dan music at:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://www.myspace.com/lossnyc
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> (updated monthly)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://www.soundclick.com/lossnyc.htm
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://www.indie911.com/dan-snazelle
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> (or for techno) http://www.myspace.com/snazelle
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ALSO check out Dan synth/Fx
> projects:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> AUDIO ARK:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJRpvaOcUic
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqIa_lXQNTA&feature=channel_page
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4nJPjGgOcU&feature=channel_page
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> ----------------------------------------
> >>>>>>> From: taciturn_unquiet at hotmail.com
> >>>>>>> To: lightburnx at yahoo.com;
> >>>>>> synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >>>>>>> Subject: RE: [sdiy] Random
> Tone
> >> Generator
> >>>> redux
> >>>>>>> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009
> 13:22:15 -0500
> >>>>>>> CC:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Kyle,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Yeah, the original is the MIT
> class
> >> project. I
> >>>> trawled
> >>>>>> through the archive to find the
> links
> >> again.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> http://www.media.mit.edu/physics/pedagogy/fab/electronics/old_assignment.html
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> http://www.media.mit.edu/physics/pedagogy/fab/electronics/assignment.html
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm also going to be posting
> those
> >> links on my
> >>>> web
> >>>>>> page over at sdiy.org so I won't
> lose the
> >> things
> >>>> again.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> http://www.sdiy.org/modius13/
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -Ian
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >> ----------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009
> 09:51:21
> >> -0700
> >>>>>>>> From: lightburnx at yahoo.com
> >>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [sdiy] Random
> Tone
> >> Generator
> >>>> redux
> >>>>>>>> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> That's another good idea,
> having
> >> the board
> >>>> in and
> >>>>>> of itself have a degree of
> modularity.
> >> There's
> >>>> potential to
> >>>>>> cook the random tone gen, some
> variation
> >> on that,
> >>>> or a bend
> >>>>>> matrix... lot's of possibilities.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> You'll get more harmonic
> content
> >> with
> >>>> sawtooth
> >>>>>> (teeth? heh) waves. The 4046/4024
> >> waveshaper will
> >>>> do that
> >>>>>> for you, though the standard
> square out
> >> could be
> >>>> put into an
> >>>>>> external VCO's sync, kinda
> expanding your
> >>>> palette.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> This is based off an MIT
> design,
> >> right? I
> >>>> can't
> >>>>>> find the link myself now, but I
> recall
> >> there were
> >>>> two
> >>>>>> samples on the page for it...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> _Kyle
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --- On Wed, 3/25/09, Ian
> Smith
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> From: Ian Smith
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [sdiy]
> Random
> >> Tone
> >>>> Generator
> >>>>>> redux
> >>>>>>>>> To: "synth diy"
> >>>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, March
> 25,
> >> 2009, 7:25
> >>>> AM
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Hey all,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I think to keep
> feature creep
> >> down to
> >>>> whatever
> >>>>>> people feel
> >>>>>>>>> comfortable with I'll
> set up
> >> the board
> >>>> so you
> >>>>>> can include or
> >>>>>>>>> omit ins and outs as
> you
> >> prefer. I'm
> >>>> kinda
> >>>>>> wavering on the
> >>>>>>>>> suboscillator on the
> output
> >> because of
> >>>> the low
> >>>>>> range
> >>>>>>>>> switch.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I'm thinking about
> putting
> >> the
> >>>> external clocks
> >>>>>> after
> >>>>>>>>> Schmitts B and C
> using
> >> switched jacks
> >>>>>> normalized for the
> >>>>>>>>> internal clocks so
> you
> >> disconnect the
> >>>> internal
> >>>>>> clocks by
> >>>>>>>>> plugging into the
> jack. the
> >> question
> >>>> is, would
> >>>>>> anything work
> >>>>>>>>> to clock the 4051s or
> do I
> >> need to
> >>>> put
> >>>>>> something in to
> >>>>>>>>> convert an external
> signal to
> >> a 0/+5V
> >>>> square
> >>>>>> wave?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Definitely using the
> >> transistor VCA,
> >>>> again
> >>>>>> with either an
> >>>>>>>>> internal modulation
> using
> >> another
> >>>> Schmitt
> >>>>>> trigger or with an
> >>>>>>>>> external input.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Outs from the clocks
> (schmitts
> >> B and
> >>>> C) with
> >>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>>> switches to allow
> clock
> >> through from
> >>>> the
> >>>>>> external clock
> >>>>>>>>> jacks.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I feel obliged to have
> an
> >> output level
> >>>> control
> >>>>>> because most
> >>>>>>>>> existing modules don't
> have
> >> input
> >>>> level
> >>>>>> controls, except
> >>>>>>>>> maybe some filters
> that have
> >> built in
> >>>> mixers
> >>>>>> (MFOS). This
> >>>>>>>>> brings up another
> qiestion of
> >> a module
> >>>> of
> >>>>>> multiples that
> >>>>>>>>> have attenuators
> before every
> >> out....
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> If this was a stand
> alone
> >> unit, I
> >>>> would be
> >>>>>> tempted to add a
> >>>>>>>>> filter or two, but as
> this is
> >> intended
> >>>> for a
> >>>>>> modular unit,
> >>>>>>>>> no filter.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> How do people feel
> about it
> >> outputting
> >>>> two or
> >>>>>> three
> >>>>>>>>> different waveforms?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> As for sound... I have
> to
> >> admit
> >>>> haven't
> >>>>>> breadboarded this
> >>>>>>>>> incarnation of the
> thing yet,
> >> but the
> >>>> last one
> >>>>>> I did which
> >>>>>>>>> had 4020s instead of
> 4024s was
> >> rather
> >>>> trilly
> >>>>>> between a few
> >>>>>>>>> of the notes depending
> on how
> >> the
> >>>> clocks were
> >>>>>> set. I'm going
> >>>>>>>>> to try to get this
> version
> >>>> breadboarded
> >>>>>> sometime next week
> >>>>>>>>> because this week is a
> little
> >> hectic.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> -Ian
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Date: Tue, 24 Mar
> 2009
> >> 22:16:43
> >>>> -0700
> >>>>>>>>>> From: lightburnx at yahoo.com
> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE:
> [sdiy] Random
> >> Tone
> >>>> Generator
> >>>>>> redux
> >>>>>>>>>> To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I've been talking
> to Ian
> >> off list,
> >>>> and
> >>>>>> thus far we
> >>>>>>>>> got:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> -4024 as a
> suboscillator
> >> on the
> >>>> output;
> >>>>>> individual
> >>>>>>>>> outs and/or summed
> staircase
> >> out
> >>>>>>>>>> -The bigger
> divisions off
> >> the 4024
> >>>> can
> >>>>>> work as CV or
> >>>>>>>>> gates
> >>>>>>>>>> -Spare Schmitts
> >> modulating
> >>>> existing
> >>>>>> Schmitts A, B, or
> >>>>>>>>> C with Vactrols
> >>>>>>>>>> -MFOS WSG tricks,
> like a
> >>>> transistor VCA
> >>>>>>>>>> -Multiple,
> buffered taps
> >> out from
> >>>> within
> >>>>>> the circuit,
> >>>>>>>>> pending they give
> >> dramatically
> >>>> different
> >>>>>> enough outputs
> >>>>>>>>>> -External
> clock/line in
> >> (again,
> >>>> to
> >>>>>> Schmitts A, B, or
> >>>>>>>>> C), not unlike this
> guitar FX
> >> design
> >>>> here:
> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.geocities.com/tpe123/folkurban/fuzz/pwm.gif
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> As for a dirt
> simple
> >> filter, maybe
> >>>> a
> >>>>>> rotary switch
> >>>>>>>>> with various cap
> values on the
> >> output.
> >>>> I
> >>>>>> reckon it'd keep
> >>>>>>>>> feature creep down
> (not that
> >> it hasn't
> >>>> been
> >>>>>> chugging along
> >>>>>>>>> already) to let an
> external
> >> filter do
> >>>> the
> >>>>>> work.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> And by way of
> waveshaping,
> >> there's
> >>>> some
> >>>>>> interesting
> >>>>>>>>> stuff to be had here:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.geocities.com/picsynth/sawtooth.jpg
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Main site: http://www.geocities.com/picsynth/
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Indeed, I'm
> curious how
> >> the beast
> >>>> sounds
> >>>>>> as is too!
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> _Kyle
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> --- On Tue,
> 3/24/09, Colin
> >> Hinz
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> From: Colin
> Hinz
> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE:
> [sdiy]
> >> Random
> >>>> Tone
> >>>>>> Generator redux
> >>>>>>>>>>> To: "synth
> diy"
> >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Tuesday,
> March
> >> 24, 2009,
> >>>> 9:26
> >>>>>> PM
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 23 Mar
> 2009,
> >> Ian
> >>>> Smith
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Here's a
> link to
> >> a
> >>>> schematic that
> >>>>>> I drew up
> >>>>>>>>> for that
> >>>>>>>>>>> pseudo-random
> tone
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> generator.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.sdiy.org/modius13/randtonereduxschem.pdf
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Interesting!
> How does
> >> it
> >>>> sound?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> If
> there's
> >> anything anyone
> >>>> can
> >>>>>> think of to add
> >>>>>>>>> to it
> >>>>>>>>>>> feature-wise
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that would
> make it
> >> a
> >>>> decent
> >>>>>> module, I'm open
> >>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>> suggestions.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> (trigger
> outputs,
> >>>> different
> >>>>>> waveforms,
> >>>>>>>>> multiple voices
> >>>>>>>>>>> in one
> >>>>>>>>>>>> package,
> etc.)
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Output level
> control,
> >> with
> >>>> perhaps
> >>>>>> some dumb
> >>>>>>>>> simple
> >>>>>>>>>>> waveshaping
> or
> >>>>>>>>>>> filtering?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> - Colin
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>> Synth-diy
> mailing
> >> list
> >>>>>>>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >>>>>>>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>> Synth-diy mailing
> list
> >>>>>>>>>> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >>>>>>>>>> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> _________________________________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> Windows Live™
> SkyDrive: Get
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> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>
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> >>>>>
> >>>>>
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