[sdiy] cloning, copying, copyrights

Tue Jul 29 19:07:59 CEST 2008

I ~am~ serious...

FFor instance, the size and shape of capacitive touch pads
for a keyboard, or the layout of LEDs around a knob... 
but as I said in most cases its a non-issue.

H^) harry

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:03:02 +0100, cheater cheater wrote
> LOL
> ok seriously now: out of those patented PCB features, is there
> anything in analog electronics that could be problematic?
> Do you have any photos of what you mean?
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 3:25 PM,  <harrybissell at wowway.com> wrote:
> > You probably cannot patent a PCB.
> >
> > Well.. at one time you might have patented the 'plated through hole' or some
> > feature like that... otoh it might have been called 'obvious'...
> >
> > You might not be able to copy a printed circuit board feature that is covered
> > by a patent... such as a coil, capacitor, or transformer, etc... which is
> > expressed by etching into the PCB.  In most cases, changing the size or shape
> > of such a feature would make it unusuable in the circuit. Very few circuit
> > boards have these anyway.  (well, a lot if RF stuff does...)
> >
> > Other than that, you can make as many PCBs as you like and sell them... if you
> > are clear of patent, copyright, and trademeark infringement you are golden.
> >
> > Look at the cosmetics market. House brands that say "Compare to the active
> > ingredients in Tofu-Shampoo (tm)" and then add "XXX company is in no way
> > connected to "Tofu-Shampoo Inc."
> >
> > Can you cay... "compare to the active ingredients in MOTM..."
> >
> > (oops, sorry Paul, couldn't resist... LOL  :^)
> >
> > H^) harry
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:03:29 +0100, cheater cheater wrote
> >> Harry, thanks for the reply!
> >>
> >> > Only a Patent protects the idea.  If they do not have a patent, you could
> >> > sell them. Best would be if you had one of their units that you legally
> >> > acquired and could show that you had hand traced the sechmatic that YOU
have
> >> > from the actual unit, now you have 'reverse engineered' the unit and it is
> >> > yours to do as you please (if no patents...).
> >>
> >> You can't patent a PCB design, can you?
> >> So a simple redraw is all you need to be able to legally sell the PCB
> >> to other DIYers..
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 2:55 PM,  <harrybissell at wowway.com> wrote:
> >> > On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:19:06 +0100, cheater cheater wrote
> >> >> Ah yes, but aren't we talking about redrawn schematics?
> >> >> After a redraw, the PCB has no riders on it, so you can sell it freely...
> >> >> you're also not selling a circuit...
> >> >> and not infringing in any trademark patents (since you're only
> >> >> selling a pcb, and not a case)
> >> >
> >> > Copyright (in the USA) only protects the physical expression of the
> >> > design... ie it covers the actual drawing of the schematic and printed
> >> > circuit board as if they were 'works of art'.
> >> >
> >> > Only a Patent protects the idea.  If they do not have a patent, you could
> >> > sell them. Best would be if you had one of their units that you legally
> >> > acquired and could show that you had hand traced the sechmatic that YOU
have
> >> > from the actual unit, now you have 'reverse engineered' the unit and it is
> >> > yours to do as you please (if no patents...).
> >> >
> >> > OTOH a big company could ruin you by throwing money to their lawyers
which you
> >> > could not match. They say "America has the best Justice system money can
> >> > buy..."   :^P
> >> >
> >> > Also watch out that you do not infringe a Trademark by calling it a R*land
> >> > clone or whatever. Or that you do not copy 'signature' artistic features
> >> > like size, color, position of knobs, etc...  That may get you in legal
trouble
> >> > (B*ringer lost a court battle with R*oland over that one... their
clones were
> >> > said to be intended to confuse the customer into buying the wrong product)
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Abstracting from that, I understood that if you want to copy a
> >> >> patented circuit for personal use you could do so at your own
> >> >> discretion? Can you confirm or deny that?
> >> >
> >> > For the USA, correct. The disclosure of the patent is intended to
> >> > educate those 'reasonably skilled in the art' and you can duplicate the
> >> > circuit from the ideas presented.
> >> >
> >> > Another item that has NOT been discussed is "Trade Secret"
protection... where
> >> > if you have their schematic it is because you illegally obtained it,
and they
> >> > have taken precautions to prevent you from getting it.  The fact that
you have
> >> > it makes you (prima facia) a thief...
> >> >
> >> > For personal use, how would anyone KNOW you had  copied anything ???
> >> > (unless you try to sell it commercially)
> >> >
> >> > H^) harry
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >  Which part of the US law or
> >> >> the German law would treat on this?
> >> >> We're unfortunately stepping on weird ground, which changes from
> >> >> country to country...
> >> >> Is the EU regulating this? Does the EU say you can or can't copy
> >> >> copyrighted circuits for personal use?
> >> >>
> >> >> Cheers
> >> >>
> >> >> On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 2:12 PM, Florian Anwander
> >> >> <Florian.Anwander at consol.de> wrote:
> >> >> > Hi Cheater
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> even if the circuit is patented, a pcb that isn't stuffed is not that
> >> >> >> circuit. It's merely a collection of conductors. So you're free to
> >> >> >> sell it, and actually sell a whole kit, to other people.
> >> >> >> Now whether people are free to put it together?
> >> >> >> I might be wrong, because I'm not a lawyer, but I believe that any
> >> >> >> patents still do allow personal use.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Lets say: if you were a lawyer, how would you talk about analogue
synths?
> >> >> > ;-)
> >> >> >
> >> >> > cloning a circuit for your own use if you own the original will not be
> >> >> > accusable. But cloning a pcb which is patent pending and sell this
pcb, is
> >> >> > definitely liable to prosecution.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> So, even if you're a wholesale entity, and you're making the pcb/kit,
> >> >> >> that's perfectly legal... and as long as the person who buys the kit
> >> >> >> isn't building it for profit, but for personal use, that's perfect.  I
> >> >> >> think this even includes selling it on via ebay/craigslist once you're
> >> >> >> bored with it (why shouldn't you be able to sell your own property?)
> >> >> >
> >> >> > NO that is definitley wrong. It is the person who sells the pcb who
has the
> >> >> > commercial profit (no matter whether there is a real profit or not). The
> >> >> > word "sell" includes the word "profit"  ;-)
> >> >> >
> >> >> > And the patent is intended to assure its owner that he can
participate all
> >> >> > profits which are made with the content of his patent.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Florian
> >> >> >
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Synth-diy mailing list
> >> >> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> >> >> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Harry Bissell & Nora Abdullah 4eva
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> >
> > Harry Bissell & Nora Abdullah 4eva
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Synth-diy mailing list
> Synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/mailman/listinfo/synth-diy

Harry Bissell & Nora Abdullah 4eva