[sdiy] cloning, copying, copyrights

Tue Jul 29 16:25:46 CEST 2008

You probably cannot patent a PCB. 

Well.. at one time you might have patented the 'plated through hole' or some
feature like that... otoh it might have been called 'obvious'...

You might not be able to copy a printed circuit board feature that is covered
by a patent... such as a coil, capacitor, or transformer, etc... which is
expressed by etching into the PCB.  In most cases, changing the size or shape
of such a feature would make it unusuable in the circuit. Very few circuit
boards have these anyway.  (well, a lot if RF stuff does...)

Other than that, you can make as many PCBs as you like and sell them... if you
are clear of patent, copyright, and trademeark infringement you are golden.

Look at the cosmetics market. House brands that say "Compare to the active
ingredients in Tofu-Shampoo (tm)" and then add "XXX company is in no way
connected to "Tofu-Shampoo Inc."

Can you cay... "compare to the active ingredients in MOTM..."

(oops, sorry Paul, couldn't resist... LOL  :^)

H^) harry

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:03:29 +0100, cheater cheater wrote
> Harry, thanks for the reply!
> 
> > Only a Patent protects the idea.  If they do not have a patent, you could
> > sell them. Best would be if you had one of their units that you legally
> > acquired and could show that you had hand traced the sechmatic that YOU have
> > from the actual unit, now you have 'reverse engineered' the unit and it is
> > yours to do as you please (if no patents...).
> 
> You can't patent a PCB design, can you?
> So a simple redraw is all you need to be able to legally sell the PCB
> to other DIYers..
> 
> Cheers
> 
> On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 2:55 PM,  <harrybissell at wowway.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:19:06 +0100, cheater cheater wrote
> >> Ah yes, but aren't we talking about redrawn schematics?
> >> After a redraw, the PCB has no riders on it, so you can sell it freely...
> >> you're also not selling a circuit...
> >> and not infringing in any trademark patents (since you're only
> >> selling a pcb, and not a case)
> >
> > Copyright (in the USA) only protects the physical expression of the
> > design... ie it covers the actual drawing of the schematic and printed
> > circuit board as if they were 'works of art'.
> >
> > Only a Patent protects the idea.  If they do not have a patent, you could
> > sell them. Best would be if you had one of their units that you legally
> > acquired and could show that you had hand traced the sechmatic that YOU have
> > from the actual unit, now you have 'reverse engineered' the unit and it is
> > yours to do as you please (if no patents...).
> >
> > OTOH a big company could ruin you by throwing money to their lawyers which you
> > could not match. They say "America has the best Justice system money can
> > buy..."   :^P
> >
> > Also watch out that you do not infringe a Trademark by calling it a R*land
> > clone or whatever. Or that you do not copy 'signature' artistic features
> > like size, color, position of knobs, etc...  That may get you in legal trouble
> > (B*ringer lost a court battle with R*oland over that one... their clones were
> > said to be intended to confuse the customer into buying the wrong product)
> >
> >>
> >> Abstracting from that, I understood that if you want to copy a
> >> patented circuit for personal use you could do so at your own
> >> discretion? Can you confirm or deny that?
> >
> > For the USA, correct. The disclosure of the patent is intended to
> > educate those 'reasonably skilled in the art' and you can duplicate the
> > circuit from the ideas presented.
> >
> > Another item that has NOT been discussed is "Trade Secret" protection... where
> > if you have their schematic it is because you illegally obtained it, and they
> > have taken precautions to prevent you from getting it.  The fact that you have
> > it makes you (prima facia) a thief...
> >
> > For personal use, how would anyone KNOW you had  copied anything ???
> > (unless you try to sell it commercially)
> >
> > H^) harry
> >
> >
> >  Which part of the US law or
> >> the German law would treat on this?
> >> We're unfortunately stepping on weird ground, which changes from
> >> country to country...
> >> Is the EU regulating this? Does the EU say you can or can't copy
> >> copyrighted circuits for personal use?
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 2:12 PM, Florian Anwander
> >> <Florian.Anwander at consol.de> wrote:
> >> > Hi Cheater
> >> >
> >> >> even if the circuit is patented, a pcb that isn't stuffed is not that
> >> >> circuit. It's merely a collection of conductors. So you're free to
> >> >> sell it, and actually sell a whole kit, to other people.
> >> >> Now whether people are free to put it together?
> >> >> I might be wrong, because I'm not a lawyer, but I believe that any
> >> >> patents still do allow personal use.
> >> >
> >> > Lets say: if you were a lawyer, how would you talk about analogue synths?
> >> > ;-)
> >> >
> >> > cloning a circuit for your own use if you own the original will not be
> >> > accusable. But cloning a pcb which is patent pending and sell this pcb, is
> >> > definitely liable to prosecution.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> So, even if you're a wholesale entity, and you're making the pcb/kit,
> >> >> that's perfectly legal... and as long as the person who buys the kit
> >> >> isn't building it for profit, but for personal use, that's perfect.  I
> >> >> think this even includes selling it on via ebay/craigslist once you're
> >> >> bored with it (why shouldn't you be able to sell your own property?)
> >> >
> >> > NO that is definitley wrong. It is the person who sells the pcb who has the
> >> > commercial profit (no matter whether there is a real profit or not). The
> >> > word "sell" includes the word "profit"  ;-)
> >> >
> >> > And the patent is intended to assure its owner that he can participate all
> >> > profits which are made with the content of his patent.
> >> >
> >> > Florian
> >> >
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> >
> >
> > Harry Bissell & Nora Abdullah 4eva
> >
> >

Harry Bissell & Nora Abdullah 4eva