[sdiy] cloning, copying, copyrights

[cheater cheater]

Harry, thanks for the reply!

> Only a Patent protects the idea.  If they do not have a patent, you could
> sell them. Best would be if you had one of their units that you legally
> acquired and could show that you had hand traced the sechmatic that YOU have
> from the actual unit, now you have 'reverse engineered' the unit and it is
> yours to do as you please (if no patents...).

You can't patent a PCB design, can you?
So a simple redraw is all you need to be able to legally sell the PCB
to other DIYers..

Cheers

On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 2:55 PM,  <harrybissell at wowway.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:19:06 +0100, cheater cheater wrote
>> Ah yes, but aren't we talking about redrawn schematics?
>> After a redraw, the PCB has no riders on it, so you can sell it freely...
>> you're also not selling a circuit...
>> and not infringing in any trademark patents (since you're only
>> selling a pcb, and not a case)
>
> Copyright (in the USA) only protects the physical expression of the
> design... ie it covers the actual drawing of the schematic and printed
> circuit board as if they were 'works of art'.
>
> Only a Patent protects the idea.  If they do not have a patent, you could
> sell them. Best would be if you had one of their units that you legally
> acquired and could show that you had hand traced the sechmatic that YOU have
> from the actual unit, now you have 'reverse engineered' the unit and it is
> yours to do as you please (if no patents...).
>
> OTOH a big company could ruin you by throwing money to their lawyers which you
> could not match. They say "America has the best Justice system money can
> buy..."   :^P
>
> Also watch out that you do not infringe a Trademark by calling it a R*land
> clone or whatever. Or that you do not copy 'signature' artistic features
> like size, color, position of knobs, etc...  That may get you in legal trouble
> (B*ringer lost a court battle with R*oland over that one... their clones were
> said to be intended to confuse the customer into buying the wrong product)
>
>>
>> Abstracting from that, I understood that if you want to copy a
>> patented circuit for personal use you could do so at your own
>> discretion? Can you confirm or deny that?
>
> For the USA, correct. The disclosure of the patent is intended to
> educate those 'reasonably skilled in the art' and you can duplicate the
> circuit from the ideas presented.
>
> Another item that has NOT been discussed is "Trade Secret" protection... where
> if you have their schematic it is because you illegally obtained it, and they
> have taken precautions to prevent you from getting it.  The fact that you have
> it makes you (prima facia) a thief...
>
> For personal use, how would anyone KNOW you had  copied anything ???
> (unless you try to sell it commercially)
>
> H^) harry
>
>
>  Which part of the US law or
>> the German law would treat on this?
>> We're unfortunately stepping on weird ground, which changes from
>> country to country...
>> Is the EU regulating this? Does the EU say you can or can't copy
>> copyrighted circuits for personal use?
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 2:12 PM, Florian Anwander
>> <Florian.Anwander at consol.de> wrote:
>> > Hi Cheater
>> >
>> >> even if the circuit is patented, a pcb that isn't stuffed is not that
>> >> circuit. It's merely a collection of conductors. So you're free to
>> >> sell it, and actually sell a whole kit, to other people.
>> >> Now whether people are free to put it together?
>> >> I might be wrong, because I'm not a lawyer, but I believe that any
>> >> patents still do allow personal use.
>> >
>> > Lets say: if you were a lawyer, how would you talk about analogue synths?
>> > ;-)
>> >
>> > cloning a circuit for your own use if you own the original will not be
>> > accusable. But cloning a pcb which is patent pending and sell this pcb, is
>> > definitely liable to prosecution.
>> >
>> >
>> >> So, even if you're a wholesale entity, and you're making the pcb/kit,
>> >> that's perfectly legal... and as long as the person who buys the kit
>> >> isn't building it for profit, but for personal use, that's perfect.  I
>> >> think this even includes selling it on via ebay/craigslist once you're
>> >> bored with it (why shouldn't you be able to sell your own property?)
>> >
>> > NO that is definitley wrong. It is the person who sells the pcb who has the
>> > commercial profit (no matter whether there is a real profit or not). The
>> > word "sell" includes the word "profit"  ;-)
>> >
>> > And the patent is intended to assure its owner that he can participate all
>> > profits which are made with the content of his patent.
>> >
>> > Florian
>> >
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>
>
> Harry Bissell & Nora Abdullah 4eva
>
>