[sdiy] cloning, copying, copyrights

[harrybissell at wowway.com]

Hi Dan

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:49:05 +0000, Dan Snazelle wrote
> one question i have is this
> 
> lets say you are going to sell a product that contains an 
> oscillator. the most commonly seen vco seems to tie back to the 
> Electronotes VCO. tons of people have done variations and added or 
> subtracted from the design. do i need to get ALL of their permission 
> to use the design? is it enough to do a credit of bernie hutchins?

Depends on if Bernie was the designer, or just the publisher (could
have been Terry Michaels...)  But if you photocopy the schematic page
you BETTER take permission from Bernie first. If the design is not patented
you need not credit the source, but its nice... and might even be a
"selling" feature.

> 
> and is credit simply getting permission and saying you used a design 
> or do you have to pay a fee?

Depends on your agreement. When I did the Etherwave P/V converter boards
I got the permission from Bob Moog, who wanted his name on the boards and
one piece for himself.  I did not 'need' to get his permission, because

1) The circuit was not 'original' in the first place, the ramp/hold P/V
converter was well known at the time.

2) I modified the circuit to make it more universally applicable

3) I did not copy an existing artwork of schematic

but otoh, it was easier to start with his work, rather than go the whole
road myself, So I asked permission (and got it).  I'm sure that Bob understood
that the circuit was not totally 'his' anyway... and the schematic included
one design flaw and one really serious 'error' that would have made it
non-functional if you did not know / notice. Don't know if that was on
purpose... but that is a 'hidden' way to shake off (or slow down) a competitor
and/or prove that your schematic was indeed copied...

> 
> another thing i wonder about-what if you get a design out of a book 
> or a magazine (say an old practical electronics or nuts and volts 
> project) or a out of a cookbook...if you redraw it, dont you have 
> every right to use it since you bought it as an educational product 
> (especially in the case of cookbooks and textbooks)??? i mean you 
> might want to credit it as well but do engineers credit textbooks 
> every time they design something?

No. People do not need to cite 'prior art' unless they are applying for
a patent.  Just like you don't need to cite the references for 'breadcrumbs'
if you are making a fried chicken recipe. Everyone knows what those are...

> 
> these are just questions. its an odd situation since many of the 
> circuits we are inspired by are inspired by other designs and those 
> by other designs. synth diy seems very rooted in classic 
> designs..many of which can be found in old books.

And the old books are very important. The Pitch Extractor patent from the
Synclavier (that I based my work on) is predated by an Engineer's Notebook
(or Design Idea... I cited it in my writeups) for a pulse / respiration
detecting circuit. That alone would probably have killed the patent if the
demise of the manufacturer didn;t do it quicker...  So its good to know who
stole what from where.

> 
> and what about APP NOTES-those are 100% fair game right???

In general they could be, but you might use a circuit from an app note and
still infringe someone's patent for its use.

The worst thing (imho) is to steal a circuit and then (conveniently) forget
where YOU stole it from, then B*tch at others for stealing *your* circuit.
LOL, it happens....

H^) harry

> 
> thanks
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> check out various dan music at:
> 
> http://www.myspace.com/lossnyc
> 
> http://www.soundclick.com/lossnyc.htm
> 
> http://www.indie911.com/dan-snazelle
> (or for techno) http://www.myspace.com/snazelle
> 
> ----------------------------------------
> > From: richard at skydancer.com
> > Subject: Re: [sdiy] cloning, copying, copyrights
> > Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:09:38 +0100
> > To: synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl
> > 
> > 
> > On 29 Jul 2008, at 11:20, Tom Wiltshire wrote:
> > 
> >> That was my understanding of the situation too. You can only  
> >> copyright a PCB artwork or a schematic, so the sharing of original  
> >> schematics (although widespread) isn't legal, but the cloning of a  
> >> circuit by redrawing the schematic and making a new board design is  
> >> fine.
> > 
> > This assumes the circuit includes no patented elements, which is a  
> > risky proposition, because many circuits do.
> > 
> > But I think in practice it rarely matters. The hobby vintage market  
> > is tiny and not very interesting to the big manufacturers. ARP, Moog  
> > and Sequential are long gone as legal entities, and - unless anyone  
> > knows different - there are no remaining rights on those circuits,  
> > and no one likely or willing to prosecute for their use.
> > 
> > If Korg, Roland et al cared about use of (e.g.) the MS-20 or TB303  
> > filter topology, they'd have prosecuted by now. The fact that they  
> > haven't suggests that either they don't know about the hobby market  
> > or they don't care.
> > 
> > If I started making reasonable runs of a direct VCS3 clone the  
> > remains of EMS would complain. But the costs vs the benefits mean  
> > that older circuits aren't worth producing in production quantities  
> > unless you're going for the very high end collector/hobbyist/ 
> > professional market and charging accordingly. (E.g. Club of the Knobs  
> > Moog modular clones.)
> > 
> >> It would certainly be polite (but not legally required) to give  
> >> credit were it is due. Presenting someone else's work as your own  
> >> is a damn dirty trick in pretty much everyone's head!
> > 
> > Behringer do it all the time.
> > 
> > Sometimes they get sued. Sometimes they don't.
> > 
> > Richard
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Harry Bissell & Nora Abdullah 4eva