[sdiy] Moogey jitter

[elmacaco]

Once again, with all due respect.

Kevin isn't here, he didn't dredge this up, I did.  I posted a link to the
matrixsynth blog where he details his analysis.

I don't really see how people are so quick to dismiss his analysis, despite
all the insults thrown around which seem to have convinced many, which
doesn't bode well for our discussion.

If we are going to talk about this scientifically, and actually trying to
find out something, rather than play some kind of political game that
happened years ago, then we need to look at the actual animal.

it might be good if everyone chiming in took a look at the report and the
claims, and maybe ignore the personal arguments in there.

http://matrixsynth.blogspot.com/2006/01/why-moog-sounds-like-moog.html


I'm interested in what makes the moog VCO sound like it does.  The times
I've encountered moog VCO's it was very clear that they had a sort of
animation that I hadn't heard before.  The first time I played a minimoog I
was actually disappointed by the filter, but the oscillators, even singly,
had something about them that really sounded great, better than the VCO's in
my collection, that's for sure.  No one said that the VCF and VCA don't
sound moogy, but that the oscillators are pretty central to the moog sound,
So lets focus on VCO's here, and try not to bring up too many straw men.

Later Minimoog's will have more stability than the moog modular oscillators,
but there should be some traceable effect if Jitter is present on them.

A recording of something isn't the same as the actual unit producing the
sound.  Whether you like the guy or not, Kevin tested 6 Moog 901-B's, and
found the jitter the same for all waveforms on all units.  Just straight
outputs.  So that might address Ian Fritz's critique of using the ramp wave
and that causing the jitter, as it was reported present on all waveforms.

Really, to play in this game we need people analyzing moog circuits, mp3's
might reveal some things, and we can talk subjectively about identifying sou
nd or whatever, but ultimately if there is an influence on the VCO due to
power supply noise causing jitter then it seems good to investigate it.  And
to do that, one needs an older moog oscillator and good test equipment.
Anything less is just not good enough to make any real claims.  It's like
studying Africa through postcards, it's just not cricket.

So Far Magnus is the only one besides Kevin to have the means and the
disposition to test this, and I am thankful that somebody has.  I would like
to see the tests performed on the oscillator outputs and not the main outs,
That still gives us 3 vco's to investigate, but that's just because I don't
have any moog here to join in the fun. I hope anyone with moog modular and
test gear might be curious enough to try to see this as well.

If anyone does read the report, the Power supply voltage ranges and supply
noise making a difference is a pretty solid argument, how much of a
difference this makes is hard to say, but reportedly even Bob Moog agreed,
and while it is possible he was wrong, he is vastly more qualified than most
to comment on the subject, and so all we can do is hope the closer looks
people make into this matter actually reveal something useful.

Again, the focus should be on testing and observation, not debunking this
claim or that claim, it just simply is there in a specific VCO, or it isn't,
and you can't say that definitively based on a recording.

So if this is even going to remotely appear scientific we need the people
actually measuring moogs to talk more than the rest of us.  And so, I'll
shut up now.

Respectfully,

Ed


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenneth Elhardt" <elhardt at worldnet.att.net>
To: <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [sdiy] Moogey jitter


> karl dalen writes:
> >>I havent followed the AH hustle but isnt Kevins first statement
> that the warmth has its origin from the oscillators?
> If so then the VCF and VCA is ruled out.<<
>
> Problem is, it doesn't matter what he says.  He only wants to get back to
> dredging up the old Moog vco issue and nothing more.  When it comes to
> people talking about the sound of things I've had to listen 8 years of
B.S.
> on these lists, and as a result, anything somebody states can be countered
> with something somebody else states.  So if the VCF and VCA are ruled out
> then so to are all those hundreds of comments I've heard about people
> "warming up" their digital synths by running them through an analog
filter,
> or tube amp, or tape saturation.  Some people have said the Moog Voyager
has
> that Moog sound.  Others say that it doesn't.  One said the Creamware
> Minimax sounded closer to a Minimoog than the Voyager does.  When somebody
> put up an Andromeda A6 vs Minimoog comparison, everybody guessed the A6
was
> the Minimoog.  Nobody seems to know what the hell they're talking about.
>
> -Elhardt