[sdiy] stringfilter (NEW INFO, NEW DEMOS !!!)

[Peter Forrest]

Fantastically impressive, Ken!   Wow!
Peter
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kenneth Elhardt" <elhardt at worldnet.att.net>
To: "JH." <jhaible at debitel.net>; <synth-diy at dropmix.xs4all.nl>; "Magnus 
Danielson" <cfmd at bredband.net>; "Dino Leone" <dino.leone at stanford.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: [sdiy] stringfilter (NEW INFO, NEW DEMOS !!!)


> Jeurgen Haible writes:
>
>>>(Seriously: Ken Elhardt's string sounds are more convincing than my 
>>>demos,
> and he used a handful of readily available FX boxes. Maybe he likes to 
> talk
> about that)<<
>
> Hello JH.  I'm weeks behind on catching up on e-mail and posts so I'm just
> seeing this now. I realize I probably appear as if ignoring people but I'm
> just busy and really tired of the internet in general. I'll be catching up
> in a few days I hope, but I can tell you everything you need to know about
> string filtering and have a few new mp3 demos of my Nord 40 bank string
> filter in action.
>
> Too time consuming to cut and paste questions, I'll just answer them. 
> Using
> equalizers for the job? They don't work. I also have that Behringer 24 
> band
> feedback surpressor. The sound will still sound synthetic, just filtered
> differently. No EQ has enough bands anyway. You need about 4 to 6 peaks 
> and
> 4 to 6 nothches per octave. A 31 band EQ only has 3 bands per octave, 
> which
> only allows 1 peak and 2 notches or vice versa. Nor are they as steep and
> drastic as needed. JH could have mentioned some of the stuff I use as it's
> no secret, such as delay lines and phase shifters as comb filters. But I'm
> trying to get away from them because I have no control over how the peaks
> and notches are placed within something like a 40 stage phaser. And the
> metalic sound that delay lines create makes me have to use many in 
> parallel
> to randomize the frequency response, and again I have little control over
> where those peaks are.
>
> I've actually done some high count multiband filtering on my Nord before.
> One demo I put up is the following showing the effect on an the 
> unprocessed
> sound. Actually it's part multiband filterbank and phasershifter. I don't
> think something like the Moog string filter gives such a dramatic change 
> to
> the sound.
>
> Filesize 200,622 bytes:
>
> http://home.att.net/~elhardt3/String_Filtering_motm.mp3
>
> As for my latest experiments below, I'm using my Nord Modular as sound
> source and to also process its own sound (I'm plugging the output of the
> Nord back into itself to process itself since I need the power of three 
> DSPs
> just for the filter bank). I've tried many different configurations, such 
> as
> 6 bands per octave (every other semitone), 4 per octave, alternating
> spacing, random spacing, and so on. The best overall sound was alternating
> between 2 and 3 semitones for about the first 24 filters and then
> compressing down to 2 semitone spacing higher up. This produced the most
> wood-like tone, while not sounding too hollow, too synthetic, or all kinds
> of other problems I've come across. I'm then running that through a
> Behringer 31 band True Curve EQ to shape the overall sound for a more
> refined sound.
>
> Also the source sound you create to run through the filter bank is
> important. Just using a sawtooth oscillator with vibrato is too 
> organ-like.
> I'm using several delay lines slowly sweeping around kind of as subtle
> choruses (also used this on my older string sounds), and they act as
> harmonics animators. If you've ever looped a single cycle of an acoustic
> instrument, it just sounds like an electronic tone because there is no
> motion. This also makes the vibrato sound sweeter and more string-like. 
> You
> also want if possible, randomization of note pitch as fretless violin 
> notes
> are always somewhat out of tune. You need human-like vibrato, changing in
> speed and depth. You need control of the string loudness and tone after 
> the
> key is pressed so you can phrase it the way a string player would. I'm 
> also
> using a Nord waveshaper module that adds some high freq harmonics for a
> brighter more scratchy sound which really helps bring out the buzzy top 
> end
> of the cello, and I can modulate it if I want bownoise. If you want to 
> play
> fast notes, you'll want some kind of bow slipping/scraping sound on the
> attack. And when I move my string source sound to Reaktor, I'll add the
> little portamento slides that really help (can't get to sound real on the
> Nord for some reason). In other words you have to really losen up and get 
> an
> animated sound. Organ type sound in, organ type sound out.
>
> Filter plot of white noise running through my string filter:
>
> http://home.att.net/~elhardt4/String_Filter_Plot.jpg
>
> (Note that these demos should be heard through good quality highly 
> detailed
> headphones to hear all the subtleties. I'm often shocked by how the
> beautiful tone and highend detail can disappear when played through other
> means.)
>
>
>
> Here are some new demos. This one alternates between my warm and fuzzy
> newage Nord violin and the real one in this Ackerman recording. I had to
> splice in solo guitar parts from the beginning of the piece, thus some
> obvious sudden edits. The timbre of the two is quite close just using my
> default filterbank band placement, so much so that with just a little 
> effort
> in playing/phrasing and timbre adjustment I could probably replace the 
> real
> violin in the entire piece and few would notice the change. Following is 
> the
> timing of what is real vs Nord in the recording. Also threw in a Nord 
> cello
> toward the end, really showing off the wood-like quality of the filterbank
> as the virtual bow scrapes across the last cello note.
>
> 0:00 to 0:22 Nord
>
> 22:00 to 0:38 Real
>
> 39:00 to 0:58 Nord
>
> 1:00 to 1:16 Real & Nord playing together
>
> 1:12 Nord cello enters, all Nord through to the end
>
> Filesize 1,801,370 bytes:
>
> http://home.att.net/~elhardt4/String_Filter_Violin_Compare.mp3
>
>
>
> Here is a snippet from the Brahms violin/cello concerto. First take is 
> with
> the real cello, second take is the Nord. Because my bands aren't in same
> places as the real thing there is a timbral difference (if I can correct,
> will be a near perfect match), but in the low end you will see that the
> cello-like characteristics of the Nord sound almost every bit as much like 
> a
> cello as the real one, just with a different body timbre. Needs more work 
> in
> the higher range to get that sad/whiney/stringy cello type sound.
>
> Filesize 541,641 bytes:
>
> http://home.att.net/~elhardt4/String_Filter_Cello_Compare.mp3
>
>
>
> One pitfall that I've encountered is when using the same string filter for 
> a
> ll the instruments in an ensemble. I did one recording I didn't even place
> online because the entire orchestra sounded like it was playing through a
> tin can even though the individual instruments sounded pretty good by
> themselves. When I thought about it I realized that they were all
> emphasizing each other. Where as in a real orchestra, different 
> instruments
> have different frequency responses and they smooth and average each other
> out. This is just one more reason to do it digitally where you can change
> filter settings unlike a fixed analog filterbank. None-the-less I tried to
> do a number of things differently to minimize that bad effect in my
> following Bach performance of a small up-close chamber group (with sampled
> harpsichord). Still it's a quite resonance sounding and badly distorts and
> sounds like total crap in many other ways through computer sound systems.
> Needs to be played through something that can handle severe resonances
> popping out all over the place, such as quality headphones. Even there,
> there were some problems, such as the popular Sony MDR-7506 which sounded
> ear-piercingly nasal in the 2K to 4K range. If using those, or others with
> the same problem, listen to the second file labeled (Sony). If using
> Sennheiser HD-280, AKG K240, Fostex T50RP (needs treble boost if 
> possible),
> or most others, try the first one labeled (Senn).
>
> Filesize 809,553 bytes:
>
> http://home.att.net/~elhardt4/Nord_Baroque_Strings_Senn.mp3
>
> http://home.att.net/~elhardt4/Nord_Baroque_Strings_Sony.mp3
>
> ---------
>
> Just a couple of demos using my older methods for those who don't know 
> what
> I was talking about. This string orch uses delay lines and a phaser.
>
> Filesize 439,382 bytes:
>
> http://home.att.net/~elhardt3/String_Orchestra_Nord_160.mp3
>
>
>
> All the sounds in this one are from analog or virtual analog synths. 
> Violin
> and cello use delay lines, the Andromeda guitar sounds use a phaser for 
> nice
> body resonance. BTW, filter banks are good for other things too. Just in 
> my
> fooling around I've gotten complex timbres that sound like pianos, harps,
> sitars, bagpipes, and big organ pipes, that don't sound like anything 
> you'd
> normally get from an analog synth.
>
> Filesize 881,478 bytes:
>
> http://home.att.net/~elhardt3/Acoustics_192.mp3
>
>
>
> -Elhardt
>
>
>
>