[sdiy] Thoughts on drum synth

[harry]

Hey... I started this mess  ;^)

I was using a sampled "kick drum"... which I might add is a great sounding
kick drum.  I'm all for using sampled drums because...

1) only a really GOOD kick drum sounds really good... like the one they futzed
with for hours before getting the sample.

2) most LIVE kick drums sound really bad... very few drummers know how to
maintain their equipment, unfortunatly.  If you are NOT one of those... my
apologies
in advance... but you KNOW you are a rare breed, indeed.

3) most LIVE kick drums come with a live kick drummer... who will kick as hard
as he/she/it can.  It is agreed that most drums sound best when you hit them hard.

Of course its also helpful to hit them at the right time.  I once had a drummer
who
got cut off at the bar... the Coffeebar...
"Hey... this expresso is not for the DRUMMER is it ???"   ;^P   <truth!>

4) The SPL of that kick drum will get my act fired from the coffeehouses I play
in...
so I use a sampled drum.

I like the idea of synthesized (analog) drums. I want the somewhat "lower-fi"
sound.
I've done the "twin-t" method and its OK... I want a little more.

Any opinions on the "sound" of some approaches such as the various Rol at nd units?
Any favorites ?   Ones not to waste time on ?

H^) harry

ps: I'd be up for a percussion model project as suggested

matti wrote:

> The conversations has been had a million times before, and it will be mad
> a million times again. Don't use synthesizers to do a kickdrum's job. If
> you want a kickdrum, use a kickdrum.
>
> If, however, you're using a kickdrum as a model for synthesis, that's all
> good. Use The synthesizer's strong points. Just like You use the kickdrum
> for low pitched, cutting, pulsing sounds. A lot of this has to do with the
> interface of the drum, as it controls the generation of the sounds. If
> someone makes a module similar to what we're talking about and leaves all
> patches at the front panel, modular patchability should be exploited. And
> so on.
>
> enjoy
>
> On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, Peter Grenader wrote:
>
> > I am very impressed with these figures, especially the mode information from
> > Tim.  It really is great that you guys have such knowledge. Very impressive.
> >
> > I think though that the answer, the sucessful implimentation will lie in a
> > balance of the left and right brain lobe. The 'left 'in this analogy being
> > the synthesis of the physics behind the sound, the 'right' being in the end
> > it will come down to tweeks by ear.
> >
> > My suspicion is if even if the harmonic/amplitude ratios could be executed
> > fathfully via analog, that it still might not sound like a kick bass because
> > there is an aweful lot that goes into it outside of these overtones.  In the
> > very least, while you may be able to nail one sound, the normal use of a
> > bass drum within a single track contains many different sounds even though
> > only one drum and one drummer is present.  What will be difficult to
> > synthesize is the human qualities of the playing, which as you know is a
> > real big part of the the whole effect of  a drummer drumming.
> >
> > It has been my experience that while it's possible to get close via analog
> > or even digital, it's usually impossible to get spot-on.  In this instance
> > though I think this is a job for digits, not volts.
> >
> > If you look into those who have tried this with other models, the human
> > voice (Charles Dodge, Paul Lansky and Jon Appleton) in the end it was
> > impossible to accomplish via analog and they all had to go to computers (at
> > Columbia Uni, Bell Labs and Dartmouth College respectfully).   It's silly
> > however for me to compare the two sounds, as the human voice is by far more
> > complex than a kick. One who has come close is Wendy Carlos  but be aware
> > that most of her drums sounds were played at half speed in their final form,
> > the effects of which you just can't replicate through real-time analog
> > means.
> >
> > And while I am not a real big fan of the the technology, the subject will
> > undoubtedly come up "why don't you just sample a bass drum", although I
> > understand that this is not the thrust behind the experiement.
> >
> > Again, I am not trying to quell this idea because it is quite admirable.  At
> > the very least, I am trying to suggest that a very careful analysis of the
> > entire sound event needs to be taken into account, which goes much beyond
> > the harmonic structure of the instrument.
> >
> > very respectfully submitted -
> >
> > P
> >
> >
> >
> > on 3/31/02 7:11 PM, Tim Ressel at madhun2001 at yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > > Christian,
> > >
> > >> Fascinating...
> > >> is this EVERY drum with a circular head?  I'm
> > >> assuming this is for a head
> > >> stretched to a specific tension all the way
> > >> around... or does the tension of
> > >> the different parts of the drum just change the
> > >> relationship of the mode
> > >> amplitudes to the fundamental?
> > >
> > > Assumes equal tension across the head.
> > > Formula for freq of stretched membrane:
> > >
> > > Fo = (0.382/R) * sqrt(T/m)
> > >
> > > R=Radius of membrane in centimeters
> > > T=tension in dynes per centimeter
> > > m=mass of membrane in grams per square centimeter
> > >
> > >
> > >> this would be interesting.  Modeling this seems
> > >> intriging... I've been
> > >> studying physical modeling for a while and wonder if
> > >> we this could me
> > >> modeled with a delay line representing the 'height'
> > >> of the drum with a
> > >> scattering junction at end.  Sort of like a Physical
> > >> model for a horn or
> > >> flute, but with a really different excitation
> > >> signal...
> > >
> > > Because the radius is much larger than the length, the
> > > end effects kinda swamp the tube effect. That's why I
> > > said the filter would have a low Q. Physical modelling
> > > would be fun, if a bit overkill...
> > >
> > >
> > >> oh, and the Walsh thing looks super cool.  I was
> > >> thinking of trying to do
> > >> this on my DSP too.
> > >
> > > I'm still confused over how one would do this. And i'm
> > > wondering why one would do this, when Fourier
> > > synthesis is so much more simple.
> > >
> > > --tr
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
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> > > Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
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> >
> >
>
> -
> I finally got to the toilet paper, but couldn't find the end of the roll.
> I grabbed at the paper, clawing at it, but it felt like smoke. I
> eventually managed to grab a fistful, and looking down at my hand, I
> couldn't see anything, but I knew I had the paper. Somehow. I managed to
> wipe, somehow, and while glancing down I noticed my legs had disappeared.
> Oh, no, it's ok, there they are. No, they've gone again. How the fuck am I
> supposed to wipe when my asshole keeps disappearing?

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