[sdiy] [OT] puzzling EPROM problem

[RP Donker]

If a part fails, remove and and add a socket. When I build stuff, I use
sockets, however I know when I arrive @ a gig, I could spend some time
getting things running again, this often entails resting socked parts. If
I where manufacturing a product, I would never consider using sockets. If
it needs upgrading, I'd use EEPROM. If not I'd burn in every part until
for a week. Regardless of the discussion, the reality is if you put
sockets on your boards, you will be guaranteed to get a rap for being unreliable.
All it takes is one big name getting to a gig and turning on your synth
and have it fail. That's it, your stuff is "unreliable". A good tech with
proper equipment can remove a non-socketed IC, I've done it many times.
Yes it makes me sweat bullets. And yes my DIY stuff uses sockets so I can
upgrade as I go. However I'm not selling them to REM...
-RPD

On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, TooManySynths wrote:

>
> --- harry <harrybissell at prodigy.net> wrote:
> > I'm in the industrial market... where long (abusive)
> > life is very
> > important.
>
> And, where customers think nothing of spending five
> times what an equivalent consumer product would cost.
>
> > We have not seen any difference in boards that
> > are... and are
> > not socketed as far as reliability.  Service is much
> > easier with
> > sockets.
>
> So you are saying then that you never have to push the
> chips in on socketed boards to fix them?  I have, even
> with good sockets, granted less often than the cheap
> ones, but often enough that I don't agree with what
> you're saying.  That type of repair is never necessary
> when there isn't a socket. But the point is moot, if
> the product doesn't usually need repair over its
> lifetime, then, any socket is a waste of money.
>
> It's a game of odds, a game bean counters are good at.
> >
> > You must use appropriate sockets. The little gold
> > plated screw
> > machined sockets just do not have the retention
> > force needed...and
> > most failed sockets I've seen are this type. Second
> > is the real cheap
> > econo-plastic single leaf sockets... they are worse
> > than BBD's !!!
> >
>
> I agree harry, good sockets work really well, but
> synths are not an industrial product and musicians
> already whine about the price.  It doesn't make sense
> to put expensive sockets in a synthesizer which would
> come close to doubling the parts cost for many
> products. That contributes a SIGNIFICANT amount to the
> retail cost, which musicians wouldn't pay.  Same with
> home computers, video games, or really ANY consumer
> product.
>
> Cheap sockets would decrease reliablity, so it doesn't
> make sense to manufacturer an inferior product where
> electrical abuse is not a signficant factor.
>
> Quite frankly, I've NEVER had to service ANY of my
> modern synths.  NEVER!!!  Even my "notoriously
> unreliable" K2000 has never needed servicing.
>
> Servicing for consumer products is overrated and a
> fast dying field.  It makes more sense in almost all
> cases to limit servicing of complex consumer products
> to board level repair.   It just doesn't save the
> consumer money to pay a repair technican $35 to $100+
> an hour to fix a board that can be manufuactured for
> pennies. Surface mount is just a natural extension of
> this.  There isn't any need to make parts that can be
> easily manipulated by a repair technican if you can
> replace the entire board for less than it will cost
> him to turn on the oscope.
>
> I've worked consumer repair on sevaral fronts.  The
> kinds of consumer products that really benefit from
> service oriented design are things like power amps.
> They experience a lot of electrical abuse. Perhaps
> products with a high mechanical component such as tape
> decks should be designed so the transport can be
> easily unplugged and replaced.  That's a good
> application of sockets because it is something that
> might need to be replaced over the life of the
> product. IC's in those products, not worth the
> trouble, almost all VCR repairs cost half as much as a
> new VCR. I can count the number of times I've had to
> replace an op-amp in a consumer product.
>
> It isn't fair to just say that sockets were eliminated
> because bean counters run companies. Bean counters run
> companies because consumers demand more product for
> less money.  It is, imho, good engineering to consider
> the entire product, not just the techy bits.
> Everthing from the life of the product to the market
> window for the product SHOULD be factors in the
> engineering phase.  Overdesigned products, imho, are
> simply wasteful and as bad a call as underdesign.
> Computers are an excellent example.  There is ZERO
> need to consider component level servicing in
> consumer, or frankly, even many industrial computer
> designs.  The parts are obsolete in terms of
> performance in such a short amount of time that you
> are far better off to maintain some level of backward
> compatibility so a newer design can work where the old
> design was.  If a board fails, simply throw it in the
> trash and put a new one in.
>
> > I use AMP Diplomate (dual leaf) and have never seen
> > one intermittant
> > yet. I
> > ask all our service techs if they have had a
> > problem... NO.
>
> What's the cost?  I bet my entire paycheck it's
> several hundred if not several thousand times the cost
> of no socket ;), and I bet it's no more reliable.  So
> we come back to the same question, sockets only have
> meaning when the item in question should be serviced.
> Consumers are fickle, they don't wait for products to
> quit to replace them, they just have to be out of
> style.
>
> >
> > OTOH surface mount makes this all moot point.. don't
> > it !!!  ;^(
>
> Yep :)
>
> Daryl
>
>
>
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