OT: Adolf Stalin etc etc.

[Magnus Danielson]

From: "Colin Fraser" <colinf at ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Adolf Stalin etc etc.
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 10:39:34 -0000

While we are on the whack-BJ issue...

Here are some random thougths that went through my little brain. If
anyone feels it high time to call me a ass, big-ego, smart-ass and all
those.. just sleep on it, take a walk around the block, or whatever
before you attempt to reply, on or off list. I'm possibly going to get
smacked for doing this...

I know that some of you will not get the points that I am trying to
convey. I will however not assume that someone is plain stupid if they
don't.

Most emails in this thread as well as many others threads (and from
many diffrent people) carry two distinct properties:

1) They are written in anguer, as a direct responce.
2) They carry many "flamebaits" allowing for further flame-emails in
   this flame-war.
3) Most responces is written in a destructive criticism manor rather
   than providing constructive criticism, asking for more information
   in order to clarify whatever issue etc.

Now, both these contribute to this and other infected flame wars. 

Consider this email as a commentary to the style of email writing and
not necessarilly as a direct criticism on you Colin, but be sure that
some of this criticism do apply to you as well as others on this list.

I know to some degree both Juergen and Björn. I like and enjoy their
friendship for many reasons. This does not necessarilly mean that I
like everything that they do. I just want to make this clear. I don't
particularly like to see them bash each other on or off the list.

People have good and bad sides. Me to. There are good and bad ways off
telling people about such bad sides, and the current feud carries many
signs from both sides on the bad ways of conveying criticism.

Call me naive, but most of the times I don't consider that people do
certain things calculating and with their mind to be nasty to somebody
else. There are reasons to seriously suspect such a thing from time to
time, but mostly the reasons I see is just recklessness and lack of
thought which spins up these things. Go ahead and claim me for being a
contributor to that, it woun't be much fun though, since I openly
agree that I have done my fair chair of such bad habits.

Now, there have been many references to people ego recently. Now, most
people on this list have one. We have a tendency to defend this, it's
just natural. One of the classical misstakes is the will to nail
someone to the wall and have him or her to admitt that they where
wrong. In this situation people will defend themself will all
tricks. This is not a situation that many people can handle very
well. Some people is even supprise when one just replies "oh, I was
wrong" since it was not on their map of replies. Well, anyway, we have
seen too much of people trying to nail others to the wall. If someone
is behaving badly, there is more ways to get someone straigthen up,
flame-wars isn't a very good method, so you have to invent other ways
to convey your criticism.

> The Adolf Stalin thing in itself was not inherently offensive, though you
> obviously really wanted it to be.

Hmm.. personally I laugthed out loud when I thougth about "Adolf
Stalin" which is a very Paradoxial name, on a political scale that is,
extreme left with extreme right. However, I can understand that not
everyone migth apprechiate the joke. I can't see that it would
actually mean anything.

> Why on earth are you on a mailing list for the purpose of learning and
> sharing information with others when you seem to think you are better than
> the rest of us ?

I just want to point out that BJ has infact contributed in discussions
on the list. Sure, he's been a few fights aswell, but many others have
also been that. Yours trouly included.

> > I don't having problem taking kicks in my ass, no
> > more or less then other people are able to accept
> > that up to a certain limit off course, but i never
> > have said that i don't give back the same amount
> > of butt kicking.
> 
> This attitude is typical - "I can take criticism", says BJ, "but I will
> always return it".
> 
> The point of being able to accept criticism is that it may be accurate and
> justified.
> You *always* insist on returning criticism to your critics, so your supposed
> ability to take it is entirely false. Let's face it - you just like to
> argue.
> You never seem to learn from other peoples criticism, because *you* are
> always right, and they are always wrong.

The only way I can see that the above make sence is to assume that it
is destructive criticism you are discussing. Knowing BJ I know that if
someone throw shit on him he will throw shit back, and so will
actually many others. I just come up here and ask what all this
shit-throwing is leading to anyway. You just wast a whole lot of
energy, that's why I bring some commentary on how flame-wars
begins. They are usually unecessary. Some things does not come out
well through text/emal. Irony is one of those. BJ runs with a lot of
that.

A problem is that few people spend time and effort to make sure that
when they convey criticism on some text, opinion, construction, that
this criticism is written in such a way that it is precise and
concise, without possible flamebaits so that the real core of the
criticism can be conveyed without having the receiver being diverted
from the core criticism for the wrong reasons.

In a similar sence people does not spend the necessary time to look
beyond what is obvious flame-baits (usually unintensionanly so) and
see the real aspects of what is written.

Thus, I criticise both the way people read and write things. It may
not be that people will allways write things very well and accurate,
but they could at times at least to a better job at reading.

Another thing that one really must understand... people can be
tired. If one expect too much at all times, then one is bound to be
dissappionted. Such is life. We are in the winter now, it's dark, it
has been raining for a couple of months, people has been working
alot. Is this really the situation when people work at their best? I
don't think so.

One of the faults I find in BJs texts is that he makes too short
commentaries on the situation and logic behind a statement, then he
makes conclusions from that. Now, the way he conveys his thoughts is
not allways as clear as his thoughts. This makes people "attack" him
rather than just discuss things in a nice maner. If you do take the
time, you can discuss things and both sides can learn from it. I also
think that many others make similar misstakes, so BJ is not allone in
this, but since he is up for bashing it seems, then lets discuss him
as an example.

> This was blatantly obvious from your response to JHs critique of the 303
> rubbish - you invited corrections, he gave them, you responded in your usual
> immature manner.

Interesting, I personally found JHs email not discussing much of
technical details, at least not sufficient for me to understand what
was wrong and what the correction should be, and containing a number
of unnecessary flaim-bates. Now, I did provide some commentary and
criticism on that email. In addition I provided some general thoughts
on the deteriation that I have felt is happening to the list. Now,
have have received both positive and negative feedback to this email.

It is interesting that if one openly discuss issues around the
deteriration of the list then one all of a sudden a target for
flames. I just hope that people will read through this email and
ponder over it and looks beyond the current conflict and see what I am
trying to say about the situation outside of this conflict. I just
think people have taken it overboard and I just hate to see this
happening.

> > There are people in this list who claim themselves
> > to be open minded, having high tolerance thresholds,
> > preachers of free speech, and directly speaking.
> > As it seams(as usuall) those who claim so are those
> > who in reality has the least of mentioned gifts.
> > Which is sad to see. (as usuall)
> 
> Warning ! Warning ! Man with his head stuck right up his own ass alert !

Um. This is certainly a flame-bate. It is naturally your statement,
but then, if you look at it, you will find that there is a certain
truth in what BJ did say. The above BJ statement will hold for many
people. Isn't it so that your interpretation of it was tinted by your
general disagreement with BJ?

However, this need for fingerpointing which people seems to spend an
obscene amount of effort on does not lead to anything. I still haven't
learned much more about the TB-303 filter for instance since BJ
announced his essay. The flame-war that followed has prohibited BJ, JH
and others to discuss the technical aspects, instead too much efforts
have been put on this flame war.

> Colin f
> 
> PS
> Merry xmas etc...

Now, if we only would recall the Xmas message... do anybody here recall?

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year,
Magnus