[sdiy] Weird Yamaha CS40M problem

Antti Pitkämäki antti.s.pitkamaki at gmail.com
Mon Sep 20 10:08:55 CEST 2021


Thanks, Michael! When I disconnected the VCF/VCA board from the final
amplification board, where the 4016 is located, I could still see the 15V
p-p "weird oscillation" in the VCF-section. So the 4016 is not connected to
the problem, but it explained why the weird oscillation reaches the output
even when the VCA is closed. I'll try to do some further measurements
today. I want to see what happens to the filter resonance control voltage
when the weird oscillation appears. The weird oscillation really seems like
extreme feedback in the filter.

Antti

ma 20. syysk. 2021 klo 10.09 Michael E Caloroso <mec.forumreader at gmail.com>
kirjoitti:

> It's a safe bet that the 4016 has been damaged from the excessive voltage
> (max is +/-7.5vdc).  Those CMOS switches can be downright unpredictable
> after an excessive voltage at input and/or output.  I had a CMOS failure
> mode that caused feedthrough through the other switch sections.
>
> I'm not sure about the TC makes of the 4016, but first generation RCA CMOS
> switches did not have overvoltage protection at the I/O pins and are often
> found defective on vintage gear.
>
> You could be chasing a ghost.  More than once I traced a failure to a
> component, only to uncover the root cause was another component connected
> to it or the supply rail.
>
> MC
>
> On Sun, Sep 19, 2021 at 5:15 PM Antti Pitkämäki via Synth-diy <
> synth-diy at synth-diy.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> A small update: I think I solved why the "weird oscillation" reaches the
>> output even when the VCA is off. This synth has a feature labeled POA,
>> "Pass Over Amplifier", which sends a signal from the VCF directly to the
>> output amplifier, bypassing the VCA. It's controlled by a semiconductor
>> switch (TC4016BP) on the output amplifier card. I was able to detect the
>> weird oscillation at the input pin of the switch and also at the output pin
>> of the switch (in a distorted form) even when the switch was set off.
>> Apparently the weird oscillation (15V peak to peak) exceeds the voltage
>> limits of the switch and peaks get through. Also removing the VCF/VCA
>> connector from the output amplifier card stopped the weird oscillation from
>> reaching the output.
>>
>> But what causes the weird oscillation? Well, I noticed the filters of
>> both voices share an IC, which is a dual opamp (NJM4558DV), each filter
>> utilizing one of the opamps, which are configured as simple buffers.
>> Incoming signal (from the oscillator mixer) goes through this buffer. The
>> buffer's output is connected to the input of the VCF through a resistor.
>> Also connected to the VCF's input is the pin of the VCF labeled "FB",
>> meaning feedback. Now could the shared dual opamp be the culprit, causing a
>> similar symptom for both filters? It's really the only shared component
>> between the filters. Well, there's another similar shared component, but it
>> buffers the VCF's envelope generator control voltage, so I don't think
>> that's the problem.
>>
>> So I guess it would be a good idea to try changing the mentioned dual
>> opamp buffer at the VCFs' inputs (being the only common component for both
>> filters, which both malfunction in the same way)? Could such a component,
>> in theory, cause out-of-control feedback at the filter? It's weird that it
>> only occurs in very specific conditions. Somehow I feel a defect filter IC
>> would have made more sense, but it would be quite strange for two separate
>> filter ICs to malfunction in exactly the same way.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Antti
>>
>> la 18. syysk. 2021 klo 0.34 Antti Pitkämäki <antti.s.pitkamaki at gmail.com>
>> kirjoitti:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I’ve got a Yamaha CS40M with a strange problem, which I’m unfortunately
>>> unable to solve by myself. I wonder if anybody could give any insight into
>>> the following:
>>>
>>> The synth works otherwise just fine, but certain settings result in a
>>> strange situation. I can make it happen by setting both oscillators to 8’
>>> square waves (50%), maximum volume for both in the mixer section, filter
>>> resonance at maximum and filter cutoff around 50%. With these settings, the
>>> resonance is mainly boosting the fundamental, and as the oscillators beat
>>> against each other, slight clipping occurs at peak volumes. And then… It
>>> sounds as if the filter breaks into total self oscillation (which the synth
>>> can’t normally do) with extreme volume (wasn’t fun to find out the first
>>> time when playing with headphones as the ”weird oscillation” volume is
>>> much, much louder than the synth’s sound otherwise). The resultant sound
>>> sounds like this screaming farty buzz, almost comical. No key needs to be
>>> depressed for this sound to keep sustaining, it gives a rat’s ass about
>>> anything the VCA is doing. The pitch of the strange oscillation changes
>>> when changing filter cutoff frequency, and it ends if the filter cutoff
>>> frequency is changed considerably. Also turning down the resonance ends the
>>> weird oscillation, after which everything works normally. Decreasing the
>>> volumes of the oscillators to zero from the mixer section does not end the
>>> weird oscillation, but if I do so, I can hear the weird oscillation more
>>> cleanly.
>>>
>>> It seems that clipping caused at the filters creates the weird
>>> oscillation situation, at least if resonance is set high, and only square
>>> waves from two oscillators with filter resonance at maximum create loud
>>> enough a signal to reach clipping - or at least that’s my theory. And yes,
>>> filters in plural - Both channels of this two-voice synth are able to
>>> create the weird oscillation, either together or either just one of them
>>> alone. This rules out a defect filter IC, I believe (would have been nice
>>> and easy, although costly…).
>>>
>>> I only have a cheap old analog scope which is in a dire need of
>>> calibration and likely recapping (even the calibration waveform looks
>>> slightly off), but nonetheless I did some poking.
>>>
>>> The schematics of the Yamaha can be found here:
>>> https://manuals.fdiskc.com/flat/Yamaha%20CS-40M%20Service%20Manual%20(%20HI-RES%20).pdf
>>>
>>> I checked the weird oscillation on the FA card (VCF/VCA) at pins A13 and
>>> A23, where the signal enters the VCA and where it also leaves to the PB
>>> card (where the two voices are mixed together before output). To clarify,
>>> pins A13 and A23 send a pre-VCA signal to the final output amp board (both
>>> pre- and post-VCA signals are being sent to the PB card). The weird
>>> oscillation is about 15V peak-to-peak, and looks a bit like a clipped
>>> triangle wave with a fuzzy component in the lower bottom part.
>>>
>>> On pins A01 and A02 of the FA card the weird oscillation can only be
>>> seen if a key is depressed - these pins carry the post-VCA signal.
>>>
>>> Looking at FA’s +15V and -15V supplies, I see nothing suspicious either
>>> during normal operation nor during the weird oscillation state.
>>>
>>> I’m really puzzled with this. Both voices malfunction similarly, but
>>> what causes it? Please let me know if you have any idea on what to do next,
>>> I would appreciate any help a lot!
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Antti
>>>
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